browse mode in Microsoft Word and Outlook

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browse mode in Microsoft Word and Outlook

Michael Curran-3
Hi all,

For those interested, I have been working on browse mode for Microsoft
Word / Outlook 2007 and above in branch t2975.
Ticket #2975: http://community.nvda-project.org/ticket/2975

I have made a try build available:
http://community.nvda-project.org/try/t2975/nvda_snapshot_try-t2975-10526,6f6738f.exe

This work so far includes:
* Optional browse mode for Microsoft Word. Press NVDA+space to switch to
browse mode. Press NVDA+space again to switch back to focus mode.
* While in browse mode:
  * Arrow keys will move through the document as normal, however when in
tables cells to the right of the cursor will not be skipped. Thus it is
possible to read the entire document just by pressing down arrow.
  * Quick navigation keys, and the Elements List are available in browse
mode.
    * Available quick navigation keys are: h for heading, 1 through 6
for heading levels, k for link, g for graphic, t for table, and a for
annotation (revisions, comments).
   * The elements list can show links, headings, and annotations
(revisions and comments).
* In Microsoft Outlook 2007 and above, browse mode is on by default when
reading emails, but not writing them. (Hopefully).

I have only tested so far on Office 2010.
Please try it out and provide feedback on the ticket.

At this stage I am not interested in suggested extra features, rather
just bugs with the stated features and or bugs caused in other browse
mode documents due to the abstraction work.

thanks
Mick

--
Michael Curran
Executive Director, NV Access Limited
Ph + 61 7 5667 8372
www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @nvaccess

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Re: browse mode in Microsoft Word and Outlook

Brian Gaff Lineone downstairs
For the record, the mode  switches with word versions as far back as 2002.
 Brian

[hidden email]
Brian Gaff's other account.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Curran" <[hidden email]>
To: "NVDA screen reader development" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2014 7:16 AM
Subject: [Nvda-devel] browse mode in Microsoft Word and Outlook


> Hi all,
>
> For those interested, I have been working on browse mode for Microsoft
> Word / Outlook 2007 and above in branch t2975.
> Ticket #2975: http://community.nvda-project.org/ticket/2975
>
> I have made a try build available:
> http://community.nvda-project.org/try/t2975/nvda_snapshot_try-t2975-10526,6f6738f.exe
>
> This work so far includes:
> * Optional browse mode for Microsoft Word. Press NVDA+space to switch to
> browse mode. Press NVDA+space again to switch back to focus mode.
> * While in browse mode:
>  * Arrow keys will move through the document as normal, however when in
> tables cells to the right of the cursor will not be skipped. Thus it is
> possible to read the entire document just by pressing down arrow.
>  * Quick navigation keys, and the Elements List are available in browse
> mode.
>    * Available quick navigation keys are: h for heading, 1 through 6
> for heading levels, k for link, g for graphic, t for table, and a for
> annotation (revisions, comments).
>   * The elements list can show links, headings, and annotations
> (revisions and comments).
> * In Microsoft Outlook 2007 and above, browse mode is on by default when
> reading emails, but not writing them. (Hopefully).
>
> I have only tested so far on Office 2010.
> Please try it out and provide feedback on the ticket.
>
> At this stage I am not interested in suggested extra features, rather
> just bugs with the stated features and or bugs caused in other browse
> mode documents due to the abstraction work.
>
> thanks
> Mick
>
> --
> Michael Curran
> Executive Director, NV Access Limited
> Ph + 61 7 5667 8372
> www.nvaccess.org
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
> Twitter: @nvaccess
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Nvda-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/nvda-devel 


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Re: browse mode in Microsoft Word and Outlook

Fatma Mehanna
hi,
i tried the build with office2010 and i found out the following:
when i switch to browse mode (nvda+space), and i press a letter which
is not related to a quick navigation element, for example the J
letter, i noticed that it is being written in the document. it
shouldn't be written and passed as if i'm in a webpage.
this is what i noticed so far.
thanks.


On 11/5/14, Brian Gaff Lineone downstairs <[hidden email]> wrote:

> For the record, the mode  switches with word versions as far back as 2002.
>  Brian
>
> [hidden email]
> Brian Gaff's other account.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael Curran" <[hidden email]>
> To: "NVDA screen reader development" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2014 7:16 AM
> Subject: [Nvda-devel] browse mode in Microsoft Word and Outlook
>
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> For those interested, I have been working on browse mode for Microsoft
>> Word / Outlook 2007 and above in branch t2975.
>> Ticket #2975: http://community.nvda-project.org/ticket/2975
>>
>> I have made a try build available:
>> http://community.nvda-project.org/try/t2975/nvda_snapshot_try-t2975-10526,6f6738f.exe
>>
>> This work so far includes:
>> * Optional browse mode for Microsoft Word. Press NVDA+space to switch to
>> browse mode. Press NVDA+space again to switch back to focus mode.
>> * While in browse mode:
>>  * Arrow keys will move through the document as normal, however when in
>> tables cells to the right of the cursor will not be skipped. Thus it is
>> possible to read the entire document just by pressing down arrow.
>>  * Quick navigation keys, and the Elements List are available in browse
>> mode.
>>    * Available quick navigation keys are: h for heading, 1 through 6
>> for heading levels, k for link, g for graphic, t for table, and a for
>> annotation (revisions, comments).
>>   * The elements list can show links, headings, and annotations
>> (revisions and comments).
>> * In Microsoft Outlook 2007 and above, browse mode is on by default when
>> reading emails, but not writing them. (Hopefully).
>>
>> I have only tested so far on Office 2010.
>> Please try it out and provide feedback on the ticket.
>>
>> At this stage I am not interested in suggested extra features, rather
>> just bugs with the stated features and or bugs caused in other browse
>> mode documents due to the abstraction work.
>>
>> thanks
>> Mick
>>
>> --
>> Michael Curran
>> Executive Director, NV Access Limited
>> Ph + 61 7 5667 8372
>> www.nvaccess.org
>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
>> Twitter: @nvaccess
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nvda-devel mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/nvda-devel
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Nvda-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/nvda-devel
>

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Re: browse mode in Microsoft Word and Outlook

James Teh
This is a more general issue that applies on the web as well; e.g. if
you are focused in an editable text field. The problem is that we don't
want to just block any key that isn't a quick navigation key, since this
would break some useful scenarios, but that means we can't know what we
should and shouldn't block. Just blocking letters doesn't necessarily
achieve what you want, since other keys (e.g. control+v, control+b) can
modify the text. See this ticket for discussion about this:
http://community.nvda-project.org/ticket/4484

Jamie

On 5/11/2014 8:31 PM, Fatma Mehanna wrote:

> hi,
> i tried the build with office2010 and i found out the following:
> when i switch to browse mode (nvda+space), and i press a letter which
> is not related to a quick navigation element, for example the J
> letter, i noticed that it is being written in the document. it
> shouldn't be written and passed as if i'm in a webpage.
> this is what i noticed so far.
> thanks.
>
>
> On 11/5/14, Brian Gaff Lineone downstairs <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> For the record, the mode  switches with word versions as far back as 2002.
>>   Brian
>>
>> [hidden email]
>> Brian Gaff's other account.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Michael Curran" <[hidden email]>
>> To: "NVDA screen reader development" <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2014 7:16 AM
>> Subject: [Nvda-devel] browse mode in Microsoft Word and Outlook
>>
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> For those interested, I have been working on browse mode for Microsoft
>>> Word / Outlook 2007 and above in branch t2975.
>>> Ticket #2975: http://community.nvda-project.org/ticket/2975
>>>
>>> I have made a try build available:
>>> http://community.nvda-project.org/try/t2975/nvda_snapshot_try-t2975-10526,6f6738f.exe
>>>
>>> This work so far includes:
>>> * Optional browse mode for Microsoft Word. Press NVDA+space to switch to
>>> browse mode. Press NVDA+space again to switch back to focus mode.
>>> * While in browse mode:
>>>   * Arrow keys will move through the document as normal, however when in
>>> tables cells to the right of the cursor will not be skipped. Thus it is
>>> possible to read the entire document just by pressing down arrow.
>>>   * Quick navigation keys, and the Elements List are available in browse
>>> mode.
>>>     * Available quick navigation keys are: h for heading, 1 through 6
>>> for heading levels, k for link, g for graphic, t for table, and a for
>>> annotation (revisions, comments).
>>>    * The elements list can show links, headings, and annotations
>>> (revisions and comments).
>>> * In Microsoft Outlook 2007 and above, browse mode is on by default when
>>> reading emails, but not writing them. (Hopefully).
>>>
>>> I have only tested so far on Office 2010.
>>> Please try it out and provide feedback on the ticket.
>>>
>>> At this stage I am not interested in suggested extra features, rather
>>> just bugs with the stated features and or bugs caused in other browse
>>> mode documents due to the abstraction work.
>>>
>>> thanks
>>> Mick
>>>
>>> --
>>> Michael Curran
>>> Executive Director, NV Access Limited
>>> Ph + 61 7 5667 8372
>>> www.nvaccess.org
>>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
>>> Twitter: @nvaccess
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Nvda-devel mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/nvda-devel
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nvda-devel mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/nvda-devel
>>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Nvda-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/nvda-devel
>

--
James Teh
Executive Director, NV Access Limited
Ph +61 7 3149 3306
www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess
SIP: [hidden email]

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Re: browse mode in Microsoft Word and Outlook

Dinesh Kaushal
Blocking letters has special meaning.

Users are likely to press other letter keys by mistake when they are trying to use quick navigation keys.

But pressing keys such as control + v etc. would be conscious decision.


-----Original Message-----
From: James Teh [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2014 4:08 PM
To: NVDA screen reader development
Subject: Re: [Nvda-devel] browse mode in Microsoft Word and Outlook

This is a more general issue that applies on the web as well; e.g. if
you are focused in an editable text field. The problem is that we don't
want to just block any key that isn't a quick navigation key, since this
would break some useful scenarios, but that means we can't know what we
should and shouldn't block. Just blocking letters doesn't necessarily
achieve what you want, since other keys (e.g. control+v, control+b) can
modify the text. See this ticket for discussion about this:
http://community.nvda-project.org/ticket/4484

Jamie

On 5/11/2014 8:31 PM, Fatma Mehanna wrote:

> hi,
> i tried the build with office2010 and i found out the following:
> when i switch to browse mode (nvda+space), and i press a letter which
> is not related to a quick navigation element, for example the J
> letter, i noticed that it is being written in the document. it
> shouldn't be written and passed as if i'm in a webpage.
> this is what i noticed so far.
> thanks.
>
>
> On 11/5/14, Brian Gaff Lineone downstairs <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> For the record, the mode  switches with word versions as far back as 2002.
>>   Brian
>>
>> [hidden email]
>> Brian Gaff's other account.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Michael Curran" <[hidden email]>
>> To: "NVDA screen reader development" <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2014 7:16 AM
>> Subject: [Nvda-devel] browse mode in Microsoft Word and Outlook
>>
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> For those interested, I have been working on browse mode for Microsoft
>>> Word / Outlook 2007 and above in branch t2975.
>>> Ticket #2975: http://community.nvda-project.org/ticket/2975
>>>
>>> I have made a try build available:
>>> http://community.nvda-project.org/try/t2975/nvda_snapshot_try-t2975-10526,6f6738f.exe
>>>
>>> This work so far includes:
>>> * Optional browse mode for Microsoft Word. Press NVDA+space to switch to
>>> browse mode. Press NVDA+space again to switch back to focus mode.
>>> * While in browse mode:
>>>   * Arrow keys will move through the document as normal, however when in
>>> tables cells to the right of the cursor will not be skipped. Thus it is
>>> possible to read the entire document just by pressing down arrow.
>>>   * Quick navigation keys, and the Elements List are available in browse
>>> mode.
>>>     * Available quick navigation keys are: h for heading, 1 through 6
>>> for heading levels, k for link, g for graphic, t for table, and a for
>>> annotation (revisions, comments).
>>>    * The elements list can show links, headings, and annotations
>>> (revisions and comments).
>>> * In Microsoft Outlook 2007 and above, browse mode is on by default when
>>> reading emails, but not writing them. (Hopefully).
>>>
>>> I have only tested so far on Office 2010.
>>> Please try it out and provide feedback on the ticket.
>>>
>>> At this stage I am not interested in suggested extra features, rather
>>> just bugs with the stated features and or bugs caused in other browse
>>> mode documents due to the abstraction work.
>>>
>>> thanks
>>> Mick
>>>
>>> --
>>> Michael Curran
>>> Executive Director, NV Access Limited
>>> Ph + 61 7 5667 8372
>>> www.nvaccess.org
>>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
>>> Twitter: @nvaccess
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Nvda-devel mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/nvda-devel
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nvda-devel mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/nvda-devel
>>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Nvda-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/nvda-devel
>

--
James Teh
Executive Director, NV Access Limited
Ph +61 7 3149 3306
www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess
SIP: [hidden email]

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Re: browse mode in Microsoft Word and Outlook

Heiko Folkerts-3
In reply to this post by James Teh
Hi Jamie,
just a quick thought. Maybe we could make a sound indicating that a key was send through while in browse mode. So the user knows that his keystroke has been send to the application and may have caused something.

I have received some confusion when in a web page and forgot to change to the focus mode.
Heiko


Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Heiko Folkerts
--
_______________________________________________________
DAVID Software GmbH · Wendenring 1 · 38114 Braunschweig
Tel.: +49 531 24379-14
Fax.: +49 531 24379-79
E-Mail: mailto:[hidden email]
WWW:    http://www.david-software.de
Eintragung: Amtsgericht Braunschweig, HRB 3167
Geschäftsführer: Frank Ptok
_______________________________________________________

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: James Teh [mailto:[hidden email]]
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 5. November 2014 11:38
An: NVDA screen reader development
Betreff: Re: [Nvda-devel] browse mode in Microsoft Word and Outlook

This is a more general issue that applies on the web as well; e.g. if you are focused in an editable text field. The problem is that we don't want to just block any key that isn't a quick navigation key, since this would break some useful scenarios, but that means we can't know what we should and shouldn't block. Just blocking letters doesn't necessarily achieve what you want, since other keys (e.g. control+v, control+b) can modify the text. See this ticket for discussion about this:
http://community.nvda-project.org/ticket/4484

Jamie

On 5/11/2014 8:31 PM, Fatma Mehanna wrote:

> hi,
> i tried the build with office2010 and i found out the following:
> when i switch to browse mode (nvda+space), and i press a letter which
> is not related to a quick navigation element, for example the J
> letter, i noticed that it is being written in the document. it
> shouldn't be written and passed as if i'm in a webpage.
> this is what i noticed so far.
> thanks.
>
>
> On 11/5/14, Brian Gaff Lineone downstairs <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> For the record, the mode  switches with word versions as far back as 2002.
>>   Brian
>>
>> [hidden email]
>> Brian Gaff's other account.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Michael Curran" <[hidden email]>
>> To: "NVDA screen reader development" <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2014 7:16 AM
>> Subject: [Nvda-devel] browse mode in Microsoft Word and Outlook
>>
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> For those interested, I have been working on browse mode for Microsoft
>>> Word / Outlook 2007 and above in branch t2975.
>>> Ticket #2975: http://community.nvda-project.org/ticket/2975
>>>
>>> I have made a try build available:
>>> http://community.nvda-project.org/try/t2975/nvda_snapshot_try-t2975-10526,6f6738f.exe
>>>
>>> This work so far includes:
>>> * Optional browse mode for Microsoft Word. Press NVDA+space to switch to
>>> browse mode. Press NVDA+space again to switch back to focus mode.
>>> * While in browse mode:
>>>   * Arrow keys will move through the document as normal, however when in
>>> tables cells to the right of the cursor will not be skipped. Thus it is
>>> possible to read the entire document just by pressing down arrow.
>>>   * Quick navigation keys, and the Elements List are available in browse
>>> mode.
>>>     * Available quick navigation keys are: h for heading, 1 through 6
>>> for heading levels, k for link, g for graphic, t for table, and a for
>>> annotation (revisions, comments).
>>>    * The elements list can show links, headings, and annotations
>>> (revisions and comments).
>>> * In Microsoft Outlook 2007 and above, browse mode is on by default when
>>> reading emails, but not writing them. (Hopefully).
>>>
>>> I have only tested so far on Office 2010.
>>> Please try it out and provide feedback on the ticket.
>>>
>>> At this stage I am not interested in suggested extra features, rather
>>> just bugs with the stated features and or bugs caused in other browse
>>> mode documents due to the abstraction work.
>>>
>>> thanks
>>> Mick
>>>
>>> --
>>> Michael Curran
>>> Executive Director, NV Access Limited
>>> Ph + 61 7 5667 8372
>>> www.nvaccess.org
>>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
>>> Twitter: @nvaccess
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Nvda-devel mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/nvda-devel
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nvda-devel mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/nvda-devel
>>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Nvda-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/nvda-devel
>

--
James Teh
Executive Director, NV Access Limited
Ph +61 7 3149 3306
www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess
SIP: [hidden email]

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Re: browse mode in Microsoft Word and Outlook

Parham Doustdar
Hi,

The weird behavior of other screen readers has created this expectation.
Having sounds for characters that are not intercepted (or blocked) in
browse mode is kind of strange. I use this feature sometimes where I
want to type a single letter into a text field, and having sounds for
those keys is annoying.

Thanks.
On 11/5/2014 3:08 PM, Heiko Folkerts wrote:

> Hi Jamie,
> just a quick thought. Maybe we could make a sound indicating that a key was send through while in browse mode. So the user knows that his keystroke has been send to the application and may have caused something.
>
> I have received some confusion when in a web page and forgot to change to the focus mode.
> Heiko
>
>
> Mit freundlichen Grüßen
> Heiko Folkerts
> --
> _______________________________________________________
> DAVID Software GmbH · Wendenring 1 · 38114 Braunschweig
> Tel.: +49 531 24379-14
> Fax.: +49 531 24379-79
> E-Mail: mailto:[hidden email]
> WWW:    http://www.david-software.de
> Eintragung: Amtsgericht Braunschweig, HRB 3167
> Geschäftsführer: Frank Ptok
> _______________________________________________________
>
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: James Teh [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 5. November 2014 11:38
> An: NVDA screen reader development
> Betreff: Re: [Nvda-devel] browse mode in Microsoft Word and Outlook
>
> This is a more general issue that applies on the web as well; e.g. if you are focused in an editable text field. The problem is that we don't want to just block any key that isn't a quick navigation key, since this would break some useful scenarios, but that means we can't know what we should and shouldn't block. Just blocking letters doesn't necessarily achieve what you want, since other keys (e.g. control+v, control+b) can modify the text. See this ticket for discussion about this:
> http://community.nvda-project.org/ticket/4484
>
> Jamie
>
> On 5/11/2014 8:31 PM, Fatma Mehanna wrote:
>> hi,
>> i tried the build with office2010 and i found out the following:
>> when i switch to browse mode (nvda+space), and i press a letter which
>> is not related to a quick navigation element, for example the J
>> letter, i noticed that it is being written in the document. it
>> shouldn't be written and passed as if i'm in a webpage.
>> this is what i noticed so far.
>> thanks.
>>
>>
>> On 11/5/14, Brian Gaff Lineone downstairs <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> For the record, the mode  switches with word versions as far back as 2002.
>>>    Brian
>>>
>>> [hidden email]
>>> Brian Gaff's other account.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Michael Curran" <[hidden email]>
>>> To: "NVDA screen reader development" <[hidden email]>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2014 7:16 AM
>>> Subject: [Nvda-devel] browse mode in Microsoft Word and Outlook
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> For those interested, I have been working on browse mode for Microsoft
>>>> Word / Outlook 2007 and above in branch t2975.
>>>> Ticket #2975: http://community.nvda-project.org/ticket/2975
>>>>
>>>> I have made a try build available:
>>>> http://community.nvda-project.org/try/t2975/nvda_snapshot_try-t2975-10526,6f6738f.exe
>>>>
>>>> This work so far includes:
>>>> * Optional browse mode for Microsoft Word. Press NVDA+space to switch to
>>>> browse mode. Press NVDA+space again to switch back to focus mode.
>>>> * While in browse mode:
>>>>    * Arrow keys will move through the document as normal, however when in
>>>> tables cells to the right of the cursor will not be skipped. Thus it is
>>>> possible to read the entire document just by pressing down arrow.
>>>>    * Quick navigation keys, and the Elements List are available in browse
>>>> mode.
>>>>      * Available quick navigation keys are: h for heading, 1 through 6
>>>> for heading levels, k for link, g for graphic, t for table, and a for
>>>> annotation (revisions, comments).
>>>>     * The elements list can show links, headings, and annotations
>>>> (revisions and comments).
>>>> * In Microsoft Outlook 2007 and above, browse mode is on by default when
>>>> reading emails, but not writing them. (Hopefully).
>>>>
>>>> I have only tested so far on Office 2010.
>>>> Please try it out and provide feedback on the ticket.
>>>>
>>>> At this stage I am not interested in suggested extra features, rather
>>>> just bugs with the stated features and or bugs caused in other browse
>>>> mode documents due to the abstraction work.
>>>>
>>>> thanks
>>>> Mick
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Michael Curran
>>>> Executive Director, NV Access Limited
>>>> Ph + 61 7 5667 8372
>>>> www.nvaccess.org
>>>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
>>>> Twitter: @nvaccess
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Nvda-devel mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/nvda-devel
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Nvda-devel mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/nvda-devel
>>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nvda-devel mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/nvda-devel
>>


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Re: browse mode in Microsoft Word and Outlook

Jim Grimsby JR.
In reply to this post by Dinesh Kaushal
The rule other screen readers use is this.  If a letter that is not related
to brows mode is pressed it is blocked.  A message is sent to the speech
device that this is not a valid key press in brows mode.  If a prefix
command is pressed like ctrl+n it is passed through to the program.  The
action associated  with that command is then acted on.  This should be how
NVDA deals with this issue as well.  Otherwise you are going to have issues
where people are pressing command letters in error.  For example if you want
headings witch of course is h.  you press j in error.  You don't want that j
to go to your document you want to be told that you pressed a wrong key.
When you want to type of course you will turn off brows mode.  Another
example of this is when you have quick nav commands in windows 8 apps.  
This of course is just one users view, but I would think most would agree
with it.  it is, after all the behavior  we have come to expect over the
years.  



-----Original Message-----
From: Dinesh Kaushal [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2014 3:32 AM
To: NVDA screen reader development
Subject: Re: [Nvda-devel] browse mode in Microsoft Word and Outlook

Blocking letters has special meaning.

Users are likely to press other letter keys by mistake when they are trying
to use quick navigation keys.

But pressing keys such as control + v etc. would be conscious decision.


-----Original Message-----
From: James The [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2014 4:08 PM
To: NVDA screen reader development
Subject: Re: [Nvda-devel] browse mode in Microsoft Word and Outlook

This is a more general issue that applies on the web as well; e.g. if you
are focused in an editable text field. The problem is that we don't want to
just block any key that isn't a quick navigation key, since this would break
some useful scenarios, but that means we can't know what we should and
shouldn't block. Just blocking letters doesn't necessarily achieve what you
want, since other keys (e.g. control+v, control+b) can modify the text. See
this ticket for discussion about this:
http://community.nvda-project.org/ticket/4484

Jamie

On 5/11/2014 8:31 PM, Fatma Mehanna wrote:

> hi,
> i tried the build with office2010 and i found out the following:
> when i switch to browse mode (nvda+space), and i press a letter which
> is not related to a quick navigation element, for example the J
> letter, i noticed that it is being written in the document. it
> shouldn't be written and passed as if i'm in a webpage.
> this is what i noticed so far.
> thanks.
>
>
> On 11/5/14, Brian Gaff Lineone downstairs <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> For the record, the mode  switches with word versions as far back as
2002.

>>   Brian
>>
>> [hidden email]
>> Brian Gaff's other account.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Michael Curran" <[hidden email]>
>> To: "NVDA screen reader development" <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2014 7:16 AM
>> Subject: [Nvda-devel] browse mode in Microsoft Word and Outlook
>>
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> For those interested, I have been working on browse mode for Microsoft
>>> Word / Outlook 2007 and above in branch t2975.
>>> Ticket #2975: http://community.nvda-project.org/ticket/2975
>>>
>>> I have made a try build available:
>>>
http://community.nvda-project.org/try/t2975/nvda_snapshot_try-t2975-10526,6f
6738f.exe

>>>
>>> This work so far includes:
>>> * Optional browse mode for Microsoft Word. Press NVDA+space to switch to
>>> browse mode. Press NVDA+space again to switch back to focus mode.
>>> * While in browse mode:
>>>   * Arrow keys will move through the document as normal, however when in
>>> tables cells to the right of the cursor will not be skipped. Thus it is
>>> possible to read the entire document just by pressing down arrow.
>>>   * Quick navigation keys, and the Elements List are available in browse
>>> mode.
>>>     * Available quick navigation keys are: h for heading, 1 through 6
>>> for heading levels, k for link, g for graphic, t for table, and a for
>>> annotation (revisions, comments).
>>>    * The elements list can show links, headings, and annotations
>>> (revisions and comments).
>>> * In Microsoft Outlook 2007 and above, browse mode is on by default when
>>> reading emails, but not writing them. (Hopefully).
>>>
>>> I have only tested so far on Office 2010.
>>> Please try it out and provide feedback on the ticket.
>>>
>>> At this stage I am not interested in suggested extra features, rather
>>> just bugs with the stated features and or bugs caused in other browse
>>> mode documents due to the abstraction work.
>>>
>>> thanks
>>> Mick
>>>
>>> --
>>> Michael Curran
>>> Executive Director, NV Access Limited
>>> Ph + 61 7 5667 8372
>>> www.nvaccess.org
>>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
>>> Twitter: @nvaccess
>>>
>>>
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>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/nvda-devel
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
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Ph +61 7 3149 3306
www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess
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Re: browse mode in Microsoft Word and Outlook

James Teh
You just mention letters. What about numbers and punctuation? 1 to 6 are
heading levels, but 7 to 0 are unused. Comma and shift+comma move to the
start and end of containers, but no other punctuation is assigned. So
letters actually aren't special, yet people have only mentioned letters
so far. This is the sort of use case that isn't being considered, and if
this isn't being considered, what else is being missed?

Let's throw another spanner into the works. In Firefox, pressing slash
opens the Firefox find toolbar. Should we block that? In this case, it's
not particularly useful, but what if it were?

Jamie

On 5/11/2014 10:31 PM, Jim Grimsby Jr. wrote:

> The rule other screen readers use is this.  If a letter that is not related
> to brows mode is pressed it is blocked.  A message is sent to the speech
> device that this is not a valid key press in brows mode.  If a prefix
> command is pressed like ctrl+n it is passed through to the program.  The
> action associated  with that command is then acted on.  This should be how
> NVDA deals with this issue as well.  Otherwise you are going to have issues
> where people are pressing command letters in error.  For example if you want
> headings witch of course is h.  you press j in error.  You don't want that j
> to go to your document you want to be told that you pressed a wrong key.
> When you want to type of course you will turn off brows mode.  Another
> example of this is when you have quick nav commands in windows 8 apps.
> This of course is just one users view, but I would think most would agree
> with it.  it is, after all the behavior  we have come to expect over the
> years.

--
James Teh
Executive Director, NV Access Limited
Ph +61 7 3149 3306
www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess
SIP: [hidden email]

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Re: browse mode in Microsoft Word and Outlook

mk360
An other thing is about some sites that use key commands... for example
in gmail you can del messages pressing #. This commands works without
the need to use focus mode (that is the form to use all commands in
gmail says google in its help sites) and that is good for me.

Regards,
mk
El 05/11/2014 a las 17:48, James Teh escribió:

> You just mention letters. What about numbers and punctuation? 1 to 6 are
> heading levels, but 7 to 0 are unused. Comma and shift+comma move to the
> start and end of containers, but no other punctuation is assigned. So
> letters actually aren't special, yet people have only mentioned letters
> so far. This is the sort of use case that isn't being considered, and if
> this isn't being considered, what else is being missed?
>
> Let's throw another spanner into the works. In Firefox, pressing slash
> opens the Firefox find toolbar. Should we block that? In this case, it's
> not particularly useful, but what if it were?
>
> Jamie
>
> On 5/11/2014 10:31 PM, Jim Grimsby Jr. wrote:
>> The rule other screen readers use is this.  If a letter that is not related
>> to brows mode is pressed it is blocked.  A message is sent to the speech
>> device that this is not a valid key press in brows mode.  If a prefix
>> command is pressed like ctrl+n it is passed through to the program.  The
>> action associated  with that command is then acted on.  This should be how
>> NVDA deals with this issue as well.  Otherwise you are going to have issues
>> where people are pressing command letters in error.  For example if you want
>> headings witch of course is h.  you press j in error.  You don't want that j
>> to go to your document you want to be told that you pressed a wrong key.
>> When you want to type of course you will turn off brows mode.  Another
>> example of this is when you have quick nav commands in windows 8 apps.
>> This of course is just one users view, but I would think most would agree
>> with it.  it is, after all the behavior  we have come to expect over the
>> years.


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Re: browse mode in Microsoft Word and Outlook

Trenton Matthews
In reply to this post by James Teh
Don't forget the apostrophe key, which lets you jump to links in
Firefox directly, and that actually works!

Now if only NVDA was able to work with the Caret, as an alternative
cursor, mainly for HTML5 applications... I would assume they would
read better, and/or speak better, thus not needing to "retro-fit" the
access for it.
That being said, why folks haven't tried the online version of Office
with NVDA more, is a bit saddening. Especially since it works quite
good with Firefox or Seamonkey!
Hmmm. Seamonkey. A browser that works extremely well with NVDA, but
those "unknown" things annoy me some... Seamonkey,
http://seamonkey-project.org/
, is now at 2.30.


On 11/5/14, James Teh <[hidden email]> wrote:

> You just mention letters. What about numbers and punctuation? 1 to 6 are
> heading levels, but 7 to 0 are unused. Comma and shift+comma move to the
> start and end of containers, but no other punctuation is assigned. So
> letters actually aren't special, yet people have only mentioned letters
> so far. This is the sort of use case that isn't being considered, and if
> this isn't being considered, what else is being missed?
>
> Let's throw another spanner into the works. In Firefox, pressing slash
> opens the Firefox find toolbar. Should we block that? In this case, it's
> not particularly useful, but what if it were?
>
> Jamie
>
> On 5/11/2014 10:31 PM, Jim Grimsby Jr. wrote:
>> The rule other screen readers use is this.  If a letter that is not
>> related
>> to brows mode is pressed it is blocked.  A message is sent to the speech
>> device that this is not a valid key press in brows mode.  If a prefix
>> command is pressed like ctrl+n it is passed through to the program.  The
>> action associated  with that command is then acted on.  This should be
>> how
>> NVDA deals with this issue as well.  Otherwise you are going to have
>> issues
>> where people are pressing command letters in error.  For example if you
>> want
>> headings witch of course is h.  you press j in error.  You don't want that
>> j
>> to go to your document you want to be told that you pressed a wrong key.
>> When you want to type of course you will turn off brows mode.  Another
>> example of this is when you have quick nav commands in windows 8 apps.
>> This of course is just one users view, but I would think most would agree
>> with it.  it is, after all the behavior  we have come to expect over the
>> years.
>
> --
> James Teh
> Executive Director, NV Access Limited
> Ph +61 7 3149 3306
> www.nvaccess.org
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
> Twitter: @NVAccess
> SIP: [hidden email]
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Nvda-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/nvda-devel
>

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Re: browse mode in Microsoft Word and Outlook

Jim Grimsby JR.
In reply to this post by James Teh
Hello Jamie,
the first thing I want to say here is I think you're making an error by
using the period   And the comma  to move to beginning and end of
containers.  Personally, these commands should be used to navigate forward
or backward By field set and forward and backward by form.   left bracket
And right bracket  respectively should be  used to move to start and finish
of containers.

Any key that is not connected to a prefix and is not being used by browse
mode should be prevented while in browse mode from passing through to the
application.  Any other solution.  Quite frankly, is problematic.  This
quite frankly is one of the reasons I have usually been opposed to a browse
mode as is conceived.  I have always thought that the insert key and the
caps lock key should be separate modifiers and you should have the ability
to set keyboard modes.  One of these keyboard modes would be browse mode, so
when you press the caps lock key and the command it would move you through
the virtual buffer, then of course the insert key could be set for Windows
reading mode and it would behave as it always did note the insert key on the
Nevada and the insert key on the intermediate pad should also be separate
modifier keys with the ability to set keyboard modes and to change those
modes via the keyboard command this in my view would solve the entire
problem, and is the way things should be done.  However, I suspect that is
unlikely to happen.
Since I am seeing messages where some users do not want the behavior that I
have suggested above, I recommend that an option be added to settings for
browse mode, so this might be controlled a list of three radio buttons block
all commands from the keyboard that are not associated with browse mode
block all commands that are not associated with browse mode, except for
radio button.  If this radio button is checked, then you should be able to
navigate to the list view, where you can set the commands that you want
browse mode to allow passage finally pass all non-browse mode commands
through to the application.

While on the subject of numbers numbers should be used very differently than
they are being used now numbers should be taken in abeyance to be followed
by another key command.  For example, if you press the number four and the B
browse mode to take you to the fourth button on that page.  If on the other
hand, you press the left number four and then the letter shift to be browse
mode to take you to the fourth button from the bottom on that page headings
of course still need to function as they do so 1H would be heading level I
through 6H which would be heading level VI and any other number should
report that this command supports numbers one through six.
Just my opinion for whatever it is worth.  Thank you for reading.

-----Original Message-----
From: James Teh [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2014 12:49 PM
To: NVDA screen reader development
Subject: Re: [Nvda-devel] browse mode in Microsoft Word and Outlook

You just mention letters. What about numbers and punctuation? 1 to 6 are
heading levels, but 7 to 0 are unused. Comma and shift+comma move to the
start and end of containers, but no other punctuation is assigned. So
letters actually aren't special, yet people have only mentioned letters
so far. This is the sort of use case that isn't being considered, and if
this isn't being considered, what else is being missed?

Let's throw another spanner into the works. In Firefox, pressing slash
opens the Firefox find toolbar. Should we block that? In this case, it's
not particularly useful, but what if it were?

Jamie

On 5/11/2014 10:31 PM, Jim Grimsby Jr. wrote:
> The rule other screen readers use is this.  If a letter that is not
related
> to brows mode is pressed it is blocked.  A message is sent to the speech
> device that this is not a valid key press in brows mode.  If a prefix
> command is pressed like ctrl+n it is passed through to the program.  The
> action associated  with that command is then acted on.  This should be how
> NVDA deals with this issue as well.  Otherwise you are going to have
issues
> where people are pressing command letters in error.  For example if you
want
> headings witch of course is h.  you press j in error.  You don't want that
j
> to go to your document you want to be told that you pressed a wrong key.
> When you want to type of course you will turn off brows mode.  Another
> example of this is when you have quick nav commands in windows 8 apps.
> This of course is just one users view, but I would think most would agree
> with it.  it is, after all the behavior  we have come to expect over the
> years.

--
James Teh
Executive Director, NV Access Limited
Ph +61 7 3149 3306
www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess
SIP: [hidden email]

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Re: browse mode in Microsoft Word and Outlook

James Teh
On 6/11/2014 12:39 PM, Jim Grimsby Jr. wrote:
> the first thing I want to say here is I think you're making an error by
> using the period   And the comma  to move to beginning and end of
> containers.
All of the suggested changes to key bindings here are subjective and you
give absolutely no objective justification. The changes you suggest
aren't any more or less intuitive than what we have already.

> Any key that is not connected to a prefix and is not being used by browse
> mode should be prevented while in browse mode from passing through to the
> application.  Any other solution.  Quite frankly, is problematic.
Okay, so that includes tab, escape, the applications key, etc. So now we
can't tab through the document or activate the context menu for a link.
This too is flawed and undesirable.

> when you press the caps lock key and the command it would move you through
> the virtual buffer
That would require you to hold down the key while navigating, which is
something that most users don't want to do for efficiency reasons. Apple
tried to enforce this, but even they eventually implemented a quick nav
mode, presumably because holding down another key all the time became
irritating for users.

> I recommend that an option be added to settings for
> browse mode, so this might be controlled a list of three radio buttons block
> all commands from the keyboard that are not associated with browse mode
> block all commands that are not associated with browse mode, except for
> radio button.  If this radio button is checked, then you should be able to
> navigate to the list view, where you can set the commands that you want
> browse mode to allow passage
Which brings us back to the original point I made. We cannot know what
keys a user might want to pass through. Alt+tab, tab, applications key,
shift+f10, control+enter... these are all keys that should pass through,
but there could be many other application specific keys.

Jamie

--
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Executive Director, NV Access Limited
Ph +61 7 3149 3306
www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess
SIP: [hidden email]

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Re: browse mode in Microsoft Word and Outlook

Jim Grimsby JR.
Hi, maybe you might want to take a look at how the other screen readers are
doing it such as window-eyes. The key binding I recommend  are simply the
standard for most programs when you want to move to or set the start and
finish of something.  Left bracket for example sets a start marker and right
bracket sets a end marker.  The comma command to allow for moving to field
sets.  Well comma is a shorter pause then a period.  You don't have the
ability as of now to move through field sets.  Period to move through forms
well there again you don't have the ability to move from form to form.  You
can move from form control  to form control,  but you can't move from one
form to another.
Maybe let me put it this way.  I thought it would have been clear but I will
put it another way.
All typing commands such as letter numbers or simples that are not being
used buy brows mode for a preps should not be pass threw to the program.
Unless a prefix is used other then shift. This would prevent users from
typing things in to documents that they don't want. You might add the
ability if the user presses a key twice then it will get passed threw to the
program.  For example j this command is not used buy brows mode press it
again if you want it to be passed through. I don't see the need for this
because quite frankly you can use the pass threw key or simply   disable
brows mode and perform the task.  
Hth


-----Original Message-----
From: James Teh [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2014 6:57 PM
To: NVDA screen reader development
Subject: Re: [Nvda-devel] browse mode in Microsoft Word and Outlook

On 6/11/2014 12:39 PM, Jim Grimsby Jr. wrote:
> the first thing I want to say here is I think you're making an error by
> using the period   And the comma  to move to beginning and end of
> containers.
All of the suggested changes to key bindings here are subjective and you
give absolutely no objective justification. The changes you suggest aren't
any more or less intuitive than what we have already.

> Any key that is not connected to a prefix and is not being used by
> browse mode should be prevented while in browse mode from passing
> through to the application.  Any other solution.  Quite frankly, is
problematic.
Okay, so that includes tab, escape, the applications key, etc. So now we
can't tab through the document or activate the context menu for a link.
This too is flawed and undesirable.

> when you press the caps lock key and the command it would move you
> through the virtual buffer
That would require you to hold down the key while navigating, which is
something that most users don't want to do for efficiency reasons. Apple
tried to enforce this, but even they eventually implemented a quick nav
mode, presumably because holding down another key all the time became
irritating for users.

> I recommend that an option be added to settings for browse mode, so
> this might be controlled a list of three radio buttons block all
> commands from the keyboard that are not associated with browse mode
> block all commands that are not associated with browse mode, except
> for radio button.  If this radio button is checked, then you should be
> able to navigate to the list view, where you can set the commands that
> you want browse mode to allow passage
Which brings us back to the original point I made. We cannot know what keys
a user might want to pass through. Alt+tab, tab, applications key,
shift+f10, control+enter... these are all keys that should pass through,
but there could be many other application specific keys.

Jamie

--
James Teh
Executive Director, NV Access Limited
Ph +61 7 3149 3306
www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess
SIP: [hidden email]

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Re: browse mode in Microsoft Word and Outlook

Joseph Lee
Hi Jim and all,
One major concern though: this may burden the translators to some extent, as
they need to find equivalent commands for the keyboard layout for their
languages. This is how some languages implement MS Word commands.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Grimsby Jr. [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, November 5, 2014 8:56 PM
To: 'NVDA screen reader development'
Subject: Re: [Nvda-devel] browse mode in Microsoft Word and Outlook

Hi, maybe you might want to take a look at how the other screen readers are
doing it such as window-eyes. The key binding I recommend  are simply the
standard for most programs when you want to move to or set the start and
finish of something.  Left bracket for example sets a start marker and right
bracket sets a end marker.  The comma command to allow for moving to field
sets.  Well comma is a shorter pause then a period.  You don't have the
ability as of now to move through field sets.  Period to move through forms
well there again you don't have the ability to move from form to form.  You
can move from form control  to form control,  but you can't move from one
form to another.
Maybe let me put it this way.  I thought it would have been clear but I will
put it another way.
All typing commands such as letter numbers or simples that are not being
used buy brows mode for a preps should not be pass threw to the program.
Unless a prefix is used other then shift. This would prevent users from
typing things in to documents that they don't want. You might add the
ability if the user presses a key twice then it will get passed threw to the
program.  For example j this command is not used buy brows mode press it
again if you want it to be passed through. I don't see the need for this
because quite frankly you can use the pass threw key or simply   disable
brows mode and perform the task.  
Hth


-----Original Message-----
From: James Teh [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2014 6:57 PM
To: NVDA screen reader development
Subject: Re: [Nvda-devel] browse mode in Microsoft Word and Outlook

On 6/11/2014 12:39 PM, Jim Grimsby Jr. wrote:
> the first thing I want to say here is I think you're making an error by
> using the period   And the comma  to move to beginning and end of
> containers.
All of the suggested changes to key bindings here are subjective and you
give absolutely no objective justification. The changes you suggest aren't
any more or less intuitive than what we have already.

> Any key that is not connected to a prefix and is not being used by
> browse mode should be prevented while in browse mode from passing
> through to the application.  Any other solution.  Quite frankly, is
problematic.
Okay, so that includes tab, escape, the applications key, etc. So now we
can't tab through the document or activate the context menu for a link.
This too is flawed and undesirable.

> when you press the caps lock key and the command it would move you
> through the virtual buffer
That would require you to hold down the key while navigating, which is
something that most users don't want to do for efficiency reasons. Apple
tried to enforce this, but even they eventually implemented a quick nav
mode, presumably because holding down another key all the time became
irritating for users.

> I recommend that an option be added to settings for browse mode, so
> this might be controlled a list of three radio buttons block all
> commands from the keyboard that are not associated with browse mode
> block all commands that are not associated with browse mode, except
> for radio button.  If this radio button is checked, then you should be
> able to navigate to the list view, where you can set the commands that
> you want browse mode to allow passage
Which brings us back to the original point I made. We cannot know what keys
a user might want to pass through. Alt+tab, tab, applications key,
shift+f10, control+enter... these are all keys that should pass through,
but there could be many other application specific keys.

Jamie

--
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Ph +61 7 3149 3306
www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
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Re: browse mode in Microsoft Word and Outlook

Heiko Folkerts-3
Hi all,
we should ensure that micks implementation works so far and wait with additional features etc. as he requested yesterday. While localizing quick nav keys to different languages may seem very good for users it makes things really complicated if not possible and since people are used to the english based navigation command we shouldn't change that behaviour.

Heiko


Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Heiko Folkerts
--
_______________________________________________________
DAVID Software GmbH · Wendenring 1 · 38114 Braunschweig
Tel.: +49 531 24379-14
Fax.: +49 531 24379-79
E-Mail: mailto:[hidden email]
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-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Joseph Lee [mailto:[hidden email]]
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 6. November 2014 05:59
An: 'NVDA screen reader development'
Betreff: Re: [Nvda-devel] browse mode in Microsoft Word and Outlook

Hi Jim and all,
One major concern though: this may burden the translators to some extent, as they need to find equivalent commands for the keyboard layout for their languages. This is how some languages implement MS Word commands.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Grimsby Jr. [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, November 5, 2014 8:56 PM
To: 'NVDA screen reader development'
Subject: Re: [Nvda-devel] browse mode in Microsoft Word and Outlook

Hi, maybe you might want to take a look at how the other screen readers are doing it such as window-eyes. The key binding I recommend  are simply the standard for most programs when you want to move to or set the start and finish of something.  Left bracket for example sets a start marker and right bracket sets a end marker.  The comma command to allow for moving to field sets.  Well comma is a shorter pause then a period.  You don't have the ability as of now to move through field sets.  Period to move through forms well there again you don't have the ability to move from form to form.  You can move from form control  to form control,  but you can't move from one form to another.
Maybe let me put it this way.  I thought it would have been clear but I will put it another way.
All typing commands such as letter numbers or simples that are not being used buy brows mode for a preps should not be pass threw to the program.
Unless a prefix is used other then shift. This would prevent users from typing things in to documents that they don't want. You might add the ability if the user presses a key twice then it will get passed threw to the program.  For example j this command is not used buy brows mode press it again if you want it to be passed through. I don't see the need for this
because quite frankly you can use the pass threw key or simply   disable
brows mode and perform the task.  
Hth


-----Original Message-----
From: James Teh [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2014 6:57 PM
To: NVDA screen reader development
Subject: Re: [Nvda-devel] browse mode in Microsoft Word and Outlook

On 6/11/2014 12:39 PM, Jim Grimsby Jr. wrote:
> the first thing I want to say here is I think you're making an error by
> using the period   And the comma  to move to beginning and end of
> containers.
All of the suggested changes to key bindings here are subjective and you give absolutely no objective justification. The changes you suggest aren't any more or less intuitive than what we have already.

> Any key that is not connected to a prefix and is not being used by
> browse mode should be prevented while in browse mode from passing
> through to the application.  Any other solution.  Quite frankly, is
problematic.
Okay, so that includes tab, escape, the applications key, etc. So now we can't tab through the document or activate the context menu for a link.
This too is flawed and undesirable.

> when you press the caps lock key and the command it would move you
> through the virtual buffer
That would require you to hold down the key while navigating, which is something that most users don't want to do for efficiency reasons. Apple tried to enforce this, but even they eventually implemented a quick nav mode, presumably because holding down another key all the time became irritating for users.

> I recommend that an option be added to settings for browse mode, so
> this might be controlled a list of three radio buttons block all
> commands from the keyboard that are not associated with browse mode
> block all commands that are not associated with browse mode, except
> for radio button.  If this radio button is checked, then you should be
> able to navigate to the list view, where you can set the commands that
> you want browse mode to allow passage
Which brings us back to the original point I made. We cannot know what keys a user might want to pass through. Alt+tab, tab, applications key,
shift+f10, control+enter... these are all keys that should pass through,
but there could be many other application specific keys.

Jamie

--
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Ph +61 7 3149 3306
www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess
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Re: browse mode in Microsoft Word and Outlook

Trenton Matthews
This may sound like a long shot, I wonder if NVDA's browse mode should
function like the "Orca" screen reader implementation from the
GNU/Linux family? For future versions in general.

Three  pages come to mind for this particular discussion, though more
Orca pages of interest can be found among the Orca GNOME help at
https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/

1: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/commands_structural_navigation.html.en
2: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/preferences_gecko.html.en
3: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/preferences_table_navigation.html.en

I'm a little surprised that NV Access took this long to even think
about implementing Structural/Browse Mode Navigation for Office
applications. Also, I'm hoping that this navigation is not just for
"Microsoft Office" only, as Open/libre Office users on Windows could
benefit from it greatly. BTW, why isn't MS Excel thrown in here?
Powerpoints already got it, if I do recall.


Finally, This post is not for NVDA to "completely" mimic how Orca
works on the web. And even though AI Squared is doing a complete
"rewrite" of their "own" browse Mode, Well?

Just some things to think about everyone... Just some things to think about...




On 11/5/14, Heiko Folkerts <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi all,
> we should ensure that micks implementation works so far and wait with
> additional features etc. as he requested yesterday. While localizing quick
> nav keys to different languages may seem very good for users it makes things
> really complicated if not possible and since people are used to the english
> based navigation command we shouldn't change that behaviour.
>
> Heiko
>
>
> Mit freundlichen Grüßen
> Heiko Folkerts
> --
> _______________________________________________________
> DAVID Software GmbH · Wendenring 1 · 38114 Braunschweig
> Tel.: +49 531 24379-14
> Fax.: +49 531 24379-79
> E-Mail: mailto:[hidden email]
> WWW:    http://www.david-software.de
> Eintragung: Amtsgericht Braunschweig, HRB 3167
> Geschäftsführer: Frank Ptok
> _______________________________________________________
>
>
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Joseph Lee [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 6. November 2014 05:59
> An: 'NVDA screen reader development'
> Betreff: Re: [Nvda-devel] browse mode in Microsoft Word and Outlook
>
> Hi Jim and all,
> One major concern though: this may burden the translators to some extent, as
> they need to find equivalent commands for the keyboard layout for their
> languages. This is how some languages implement MS Word commands.
> Cheers,
> Joseph
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Grimsby Jr. [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 5, 2014 8:56 PM
> To: 'NVDA screen reader development'
> Subject: Re: [Nvda-devel] browse mode in Microsoft Word and Outlook
>
> Hi, maybe you might want to take a look at how the other screen readers are
> doing it such as window-eyes. The key binding I recommend  are simply the
> standard for most programs when you want to move to or set the start and
> finish of something.  Left bracket for example sets a start marker and right
> bracket sets a end marker.  The comma command to allow for moving to field
> sets.  Well comma is a shorter pause then a period.  You don't have the
> ability as of now to move through field sets.  Period to move through forms
> well there again you don't have the ability to move from form to form.  You
> can move from form control  to form control,  but you can't move from one
> form to another.
> Maybe let me put it this way.  I thought it would have been clear but I will
> put it another way.
> All typing commands such as letter numbers or simples that are not being
> used buy brows mode for a preps should not be pass threw to the program.
> Unless a prefix is used other then shift. This would prevent users from
> typing things in to documents that they don't want. You might add the
> ability if the user presses a key twice then it will get passed threw to the
> program.  For example j this command is not used buy brows mode press it
> again if you want it to be passed through. I don't see the need for this
> because quite frankly you can use the pass threw key or simply   disable
> brows mode and perform the task.
> Hth
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: James Teh [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2014 6:57 PM
> To: NVDA screen reader development
> Subject: Re: [Nvda-devel] browse mode in Microsoft Word and Outlook
>
> On 6/11/2014 12:39 PM, Jim Grimsby Jr. wrote:
>> the first thing I want to say here is I think you're making an error by
>> using the period   And the comma  to move to beginning and end of
>> containers.
> All of the suggested changes to key bindings here are subjective and you
> give absolutely no objective justification. The changes you suggest aren't
> any more or less intuitive than what we have already.
>
>> Any key that is not connected to a prefix and is not being used by
>> browse mode should be prevented while in browse mode from passing
>> through to the application.  Any other solution.  Quite frankly, is
> problematic.
> Okay, so that includes tab, escape, the applications key, etc. So now we
> can't tab through the document or activate the context menu for a link.
> This too is flawed and undesirable.
>
>> when you press the caps lock key and the command it would move you
>> through the virtual buffer
> That would require you to hold down the key while navigating, which is
> something that most users don't want to do for efficiency reasons. Apple
> tried to enforce this, but even they eventually implemented a quick nav
> mode, presumably because holding down another key all the time became
> irritating for users.
>
>> I recommend that an option be added to settings for browse mode, so
>> this might be controlled a list of three radio buttons block all
>> commands from the keyboard that are not associated with browse mode
>> block all commands that are not associated with browse mode, except
>> for radio button.  If this radio button is checked, then you should be
>> able to navigate to the list view, where you can set the commands that
>> you want browse mode to allow passage
> Which brings us back to the original point I made. We cannot know what keys
> a user might want to pass through. Alt+tab, tab, applications key,
> shift+f10, control+enter... these are all keys that should pass through,
> but there could be many other application specific keys.
>
> Jamie
>
> --
> James Teh
> Executive Director, NV Access Limited
> Ph +61 7 3149 3306
> www.nvaccess.org
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
> Twitter: @NVAccess
> SIP: [hidden email]
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
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> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/nvda-devel
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
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>
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Re: browse mode in Microsoft Word and Outlook

Brian Gaff Lineone downstairs
In reply to this post by Fatma Mehanna
Yes that does happen, but it also happens in web browsers as has been
brought up before.
 Brian

[hidden email]
Brian Gaff's other account.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Fatma Mehanna" <[hidden email]>
To: "NVDA screen reader development" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2014 10:31 AM
Subject: Re: [Nvda-devel] browse mode in Microsoft Word and Outlook


> hi,
> i tried the build with office2010 and i found out the following:
> when i switch to browse mode (nvda+space), and i press a letter which
> is not related to a quick navigation element, for example the J
> letter, i noticed that it is being written in the document. it
> shouldn't be written and passed as if i'm in a webpage.
> this is what i noticed so far.
> thanks.
>
>
> On 11/5/14, Brian Gaff Lineone downstairs <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> For the record, the mode  switches with word versions as far back as
>> 2002.
>>  Brian
>>
>> [hidden email]
>> Brian Gaff's other account.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Michael Curran" <[hidden email]>
>> To: "NVDA screen reader development" <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2014 7:16 AM
>> Subject: [Nvda-devel] browse mode in Microsoft Word and Outlook
>>
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> For those interested, I have been working on browse mode for Microsoft
>>> Word / Outlook 2007 and above in branch t2975.
>>> Ticket #2975: http://community.nvda-project.org/ticket/2975
>>>
>>> I have made a try build available:
>>> http://community.nvda-project.org/try/t2975/nvda_snapshot_try-t2975-10526,6f6738f.exe
>>>
>>> This work so far includes:
>>> * Optional browse mode for Microsoft Word. Press NVDA+space to switch to
>>> browse mode. Press NVDA+space again to switch back to focus mode.
>>> * While in browse mode:
>>>  * Arrow keys will move through the document as normal, however when in
>>> tables cells to the right of the cursor will not be skipped. Thus it is
>>> possible to read the entire document just by pressing down arrow.
>>>  * Quick navigation keys, and the Elements List are available in browse
>>> mode.
>>>    * Available quick navigation keys are: h for heading, 1 through 6
>>> for heading levels, k for link, g for graphic, t for table, and a for
>>> annotation (revisions, comments).
>>>   * The elements list can show links, headings, and annotations
>>> (revisions and comments).
>>> * In Microsoft Outlook 2007 and above, browse mode is on by default when
>>> reading emails, but not writing them. (Hopefully).
>>>
>>> I have only tested so far on Office 2010.
>>> Please try it out and provide feedback on the ticket.
>>>
>>> At this stage I am not interested in suggested extra features, rather
>>> just bugs with the stated features and or bugs caused in other browse
>>> mode documents due to the abstraction work.
>>>
>>> thanks
>>> Mick
>>>
>>> --
>>> Michael Curran
>>> Executive Director, NV Access Limited
>>> Ph + 61 7 5667 8372
>>> www.nvaccess.org
>>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
>>> Twitter: @nvaccess
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Nvda-devel mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/nvda-devel
>>
>>
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>
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Re: browse mode in Microsoft Word and Outlook

Brian Gaff Lineone downstairs
In reply to this post by James Teh
Can these issues not be controlled in the app module for the software in
focus at the time? That seems to be how Supernova is doing it.. They call
them map files though.
 Brian

[hidden email]
Brian Gaff's other account.

----- Original Message -----
From: "James Teh" <[hidden email]>
To: "NVDA screen reader development" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2014 8:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Nvda-devel] browse mode in Microsoft Word and Outlook


> You just mention letters. What about numbers and punctuation? 1 to 6 are
> heading levels, but 7 to 0 are unused. Comma and shift+comma move to the
> start and end of containers, but no other punctuation is assigned. So
> letters actually aren't special, yet people have only mentioned letters
> so far. This is the sort of use case that isn't being considered, and if
> this isn't being considered, what else is being missed?
>
> Let's throw another spanner into the works. In Firefox, pressing slash
> opens the Firefox find toolbar. Should we block that? In this case, it's
> not particularly useful, but what if it were?
>
> Jamie
>
> On 5/11/2014 10:31 PM, Jim Grimsby Jr. wrote:
>> The rule other screen readers use is this.  If a letter that is not
>> related
>> to brows mode is pressed it is blocked.  A message is sent to the speech
>> device that this is not a valid key press in brows mode.  If a prefix
>> command is pressed like ctrl+n it is passed through to the program.  The
>> action associated  with that command is then acted on.  This should be
>> how
>> NVDA deals with this issue as well.  Otherwise you are going to have
>> issues
>> where people are pressing command letters in error.  For example if you
>> want
>> headings witch of course is h.  you press j in error.  You don't want
>> that j
>> to go to your document you want to be told that you pressed a wrong key.
>> When you want to type of course you will turn off brows mode.  Another
>> example of this is when you have quick nav commands in windows 8 apps.
>> This of course is just one users view, but I would think most would agree
>> with it.  it is, after all the behavior  we have come to expect over the
>> years.
>
> --
> James Teh
> Executive Director, NV Access Limited
> Ph +61 7 3149 3306
> www.nvaccess.org
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
> Twitter: @NVAccess
> SIP: [hidden email]
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Nvda-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/nvda-devel 


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Re: browse mode in Microsoft Word and Outlook

Brian Gaff Lineone downstairs
In reply to this post by mk360
Yes its far harder to do this blocking in web browsers as if you block
everything, you end up having to hit the pss through key then the key you
wanted to press, which is quite annoying. You cannot even us an app module
for web pages, though in the future if we are effectively using on line
apps, some way to configure nvda  to detect that would bde needed.
 Brian

[hidden email]
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----- Original Message -----
From: "mk360" <[hidden email]>
To: "NVDA screen reader development" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2014 10:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Nvda-devel] browse mode in Microsoft Word and Outlook


An other thing is about some sites that use key commands... for example
in gmail you can del messages pressing #. This commands works without
the need to use focus mode (that is the form to use all commands in
gmail says google in its help sites) and that is good for me.

Regards,
mk
El 05/11/2014 a las 17:48, James Teh escribió:

> You just mention letters. What about numbers and punctuation? 1 to 6 are
> heading levels, but 7 to 0 are unused. Comma and shift+comma move to the
> start and end of containers, but no other punctuation is assigned. So
> letters actually aren't special, yet people have only mentioned letters
> so far. This is the sort of use case that isn't being considered, and if
> this isn't being considered, what else is being missed?
>
> Let's throw another spanner into the works. In Firefox, pressing slash
> opens the Firefox find toolbar. Should we block that? In this case, it's
> not particularly useful, but what if it were?
>
> Jamie
>
> On 5/11/2014 10:31 PM, Jim Grimsby Jr. wrote:
>> The rule other screen readers use is this.  If a letter that is not
>> related
>> to brows mode is pressed it is blocked.  A message is sent to the speech
>> device that this is not a valid key press in brows mode.  If a prefix
>> command is pressed like ctrl+n it is passed through to the program.  The
>> action associated  with that command is then acted on.  This should be
>> how
>> NVDA deals with this issue as well.  Otherwise you are going to have
>> issues
>> where people are pressing command letters in error.  For example if you
>> want
>> headings witch of course is h.  you press j in error.  You don't want
>> that j
>> to go to your document you want to be told that you pressed a wrong key.
>> When you want to type of course you will turn off brows mode.  Another
>> example of this is when you have quick nav commands in windows 8 apps.
>> This of course is just one users view, but I would think most would agree
>> with it.  it is, after all the behavior  we have come to expect over the
>> years.


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