[Nvda-dev] improving access to QT applications?

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[Nvda-dev] improving access to QT applications?

Arthur Pirika
Hi there, Yesterday, I decided to give qt another look, after hering that a
music program I've been testing, may soon be coded in QT. Hesitantly, I
decided to download the latest QT gpl edition sdk from nokia, version 4.6.3.
I know that you put a lot of work into qt access last year, and, it sort of
works. I could open qt Creator, tab around, even access all the menus and
dialogs. But, there was still a lot of extra chatter, like bits of html
leaking into control descriptions (unfinished NVDA work here?) Is this
normal? Or is this another sine that nokia don't seem to care too much for
accessibility. :(. If improvement can be made, what needs to be done, who'd
be the best people to contact in the QT devs to talk accessibility? And, if
not, could I convince the dev of the program I'm trying to switch to wx?
<grin>

Arthur.



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Re: [Nvda-dev] improving access to QT applications?

James Teh
On 23/08/2010 7:39 PM, Arthur Pirika wrote:
> Hesitantly, I decided to download the latest QT gpl edition sdk from
> nokia, version 4.6.3. I know that you put a lot of work into qt access
> last year
Specifically, I implemented a whole load of hacks to work around
bugs/quirks/problems in QT's accessibility implementation. None of this
should really be necessary.

> and, it sort of works. I could open qt Creator, tab around,
> even access all the menus and dialogs. But, there was still a lot of
> extra chatter, like bits of html leaking into control descriptions
> (unfinished NVDA work here?)
This is because QT exposes HTML to MSAA, which it really shouldn't do. I
guess we could try to implement yet another hack to work around this.
Feel free to file a ticket on this, though I can't guarantee we'll get
to it in the near future. Note that the correct fix is to have this
fixed in QT itself.

> Or is this another sine
> that nokia don't seem to care too much for accessibility. :(.
Unfortunately, I suspect that is probably the case.

> If
> improvement can be made, what needs to be done, who'd be the best people
> to contact in the QT devs to talk accessibility?
I don't have a contact in the QT team that deals with accessibility. To
be honest, I'm not sure if anyone is really maintaining the QT
accessibility code at present, although I did see some minor bugs get
fixed a while back. As to what needs to be done, that depends on the
problems you are seeing. The HTML thing is easy enough to explain: stop
exposing HTML to MSAA. :)

> And, if not, could I
> convince the dev of the program I'm trying to switch to wx? <grin>
That depends how much they care about accessibility. :)

Jamie

--
James Teh
Vice President
NV Access Inc, ABN 61773362390
Email: [hidden email]
Web site: http://www.nvaccess.org/


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Re: [Nvda-dev] improving access to QT applications?

Roopakshi Pathania


Don't know if this would be of any help, but a small group of people are trying to make KDE accessible. Since KDE is built on QT, they no doubt are contributing towards removing accessibility bugs in QT.
Here is the site that has a link to contact these people.
http://accessibility.kde.org/

Regards

--- On Mon, 8/23/10, James Teh <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: James Teh <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Nvda-dev] improving access to QT applications?
> To: "News and discussion for NVDA (NonVisual Desktop Access), a free and open source screen reader for Microsoft Windows" <[hidden email]>
> Date: Monday, August 23, 2010, 4:08 PM
> On 23/08/2010 7:39 PM, Arthur Pirika
> wrote:
> > Hesitantly, I decided to download the latest QT gpl
> edition sdk from
> > nokia, version 4.6.3. I know that you put a lot of
> work into qt access
> > last year
> Specifically, I implemented a whole load of hacks to work
> around bugs/quirks/problems in QT's accessibility
> implementation. None of this should really be necessary.
>
> > and, it sort of works. I could open qt Creator, tab
> around,
> > even access all the menus and dialogs. But, there was
> still a lot of
> > extra chatter, like bits of html leaking into control
> descriptions
> > (unfinished NVDA work here?)
> This is because QT exposes HTML to MSAA, which it really
> shouldn't do. I guess we could try to implement yet another
> hack to work around this. Feel free to file a ticket on
> this, though I can't guarantee we'll get to it in the near
> future. Note that the correct fix is to have this fixed in
> QT itself.
>
> > Or is this another sine
> > that nokia don't seem to care too much for
> accessibility. :(.
> Unfortunately, I suspect that is probably the case.
>
> > If
> > improvement can be made, what needs to be done, who'd
> be the best people
> > to contact in the QT devs to talk accessibility?
> I don't have a contact in the QT team that deals with
> accessibility. To be honest, I'm not sure if anyone is
> really maintaining the QT accessibility code at present,
> although I did see some minor bugs get fixed a while back.
> As to what needs to be done, that depends on the problems
> you are seeing. The HTML thing is easy enough to explain:
> stop exposing HTML to MSAA. :)
>
> > And, if not, could I
> > convince the dev of the program I'm trying to switch
> to wx? <grin>
> That depends how much they care about accessibility. :)
>
> Jamie
>
> -- James Teh
> Vice President
> NV Access Inc, ABN 61773362390
> Email: [hidden email]
> Web site: http://www.nvaccess.org/
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nvda-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.nvaccess.org/listinfo/nvda-dev
>


     


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Re: [Nvda-dev] improving access to QT applications?

Heiko Folkerts
Hi,
since the program we are currently developing at work is running under QT,
I'd be very interested in pushing the QT Accessibility in QT forwards. Maybe
the NVDA community could work together to convince the developers to make QT
more accessible?
The problems I am encountering most often in QT are:
1. When running in debug mode most things are spoken by NVDA correctly. In
the release mode there is no accessibility at all e.g. the context menus
don't get read. Maybe it is our fault, but nobody in our team can explain
that behavior.
2. Table controls and especially the contents of the current cell aren't
read correctly.

We could file tickets for our accessibility issues and vote for them - the
NVDA community should have enough members to make the bugs "visible" to the
developers.

Heiko


Dipl.-Inf. (FH) Heiko Folkerts

Sprecher der Bundesfachgruppe in IT-Berufen (BFG IT)

Mailinglisten-Administration von www.bfg-it.de

Mitglied im gemeinsamen Fachausschuss für IT-Systeme (FIT) in der Blinden-
und Sehbehindertenselbsthilfe

Mein öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel kann unter http://subkeys.pgp.net abgerufen
werden.
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Roopakshi Pathania [mailto:[hidden email]]
Gesendet: Montag, 23. August 2010 17:58
An: a free and open source screen reader for Microsoft WindowsNews and
discussion for NVDA (NonVisual Desktop Access)
Betreff: Re: [Nvda-dev] improving access to QT applications?



Don't know if this would be of any help, but a small group of people are
trying to make KDE accessible. Since KDE is built on QT, they no doubt are
contributing towards removing accessibility bugs in QT.
Here is the site that has a link to contact these people.
http://accessibility.kde.org/

Regards

--- On Mon, 8/23/10, James Teh <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: James Teh <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Nvda-dev] improving access to QT applications?
> To: "News and discussion for NVDA (NonVisual Desktop Access), a free
> and open source screen reader for Microsoft Windows"
> <[hidden email]>
> Date: Monday, August 23, 2010, 4:08 PM On 23/08/2010 7:39 PM, Arthur
> Pirika
> wrote:
> > Hesitantly, I decided to download the latest QT gpl
> edition sdk from
> > nokia, version 4.6.3. I know that you put a lot of
> work into qt access
> > last year
> Specifically, I implemented a whole load of hacks to work around
> bugs/quirks/problems in QT's accessibility implementation. None of
> this should really be necessary.
>
> > and, it sort of works. I could open qt Creator, tab
> around,
> > even access all the menus and dialogs. But, there was
> still a lot of
> > extra chatter, like bits of html leaking into control
> descriptions
> > (unfinished NVDA work here?)
> This is because QT exposes HTML to MSAA, which it really shouldn't do.
> I guess we could try to implement yet another hack to work around
> this. Feel free to file a ticket on this, though I can't guarantee
> we'll get to it in the near future. Note that the correct fix is to
> have this fixed in QT itself.
>
> > Or is this another sine
> > that nokia don't seem to care too much for
> accessibility. :(.
> Unfortunately, I suspect that is probably the case.
>
> > If
> > improvement can be made, what needs to be done, who'd
> be the best people
> > to contact in the QT devs to talk accessibility?
> I don't have a contact in the QT team that deals with accessibility.
> To be honest, I'm not sure if anyone is really maintaining the QT
> accessibility code at present, although I did see some minor bugs get
> fixed a while back.
> As to what needs to be done, that depends on the problems you are
> seeing. The HTML thing is easy enough to explain:
> stop exposing HTML to MSAA. :)
>
> > And, if not, could I
> > convince the dev of the program I'm trying to switch
> to wx? <grin>
> That depends how much they care about accessibility. :)
>
> Jamie
>
> -- James Teh
> Vice President
> NV Access Inc, ABN 61773362390
> Email: [hidden email]
> Web site: http://www.nvaccess.org/
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nvda-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.nvaccess.org/listinfo/nvda-dev
>


     





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Re: [Nvda-dev] improving access to QT applications?

Arthur Pirika
In reply to this post by Roopakshi Pathania
the last update was in 2005? Yep, that looks really promising. lol


----- Original Message -----
From: "Roopakshi Pathania" <[hidden email]>
To: " a free and open source screen reader for Microsoft WindowsNews
anddiscussion for NVDA (NonVisual Desktop Access)"
<[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 3:58 AM
Subject: Re: [Nvda-dev] improving access to QT applications?


>
>
> Don't know if this would be of any help, but a small group of people are
> trying to make KDE accessible. Since KDE is built on QT, they no doubt are
> contributing towards removing accessibility bugs in QT.
> Here is the site that has a link to contact these people.
> http://accessibility.kde.org/
>
> Regards
>
> --- On Mon, 8/23/10, James Teh <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> From: James Teh <[hidden email]>
>> Subject: Re: [Nvda-dev] improving access to QT applications?
>> To: "News and discussion for NVDA (NonVisual Desktop Access), a free and
>> open source screen reader for Microsoft Windows"
>> <[hidden email]>
>> Date: Monday, August 23, 2010, 4:08 PM
>> On 23/08/2010 7:39 PM, Arthur Pirika
>> wrote:
>> > Hesitantly, I decided to download the latest QT gpl
>> edition sdk from
>> > nokia, version 4.6.3. I know that you put a lot of
>> work into qt access
>> > last year
>> Specifically, I implemented a whole load of hacks to work
>> around bugs/quirks/problems in QT's accessibility
>> implementation. None of this should really be necessary.
>>
>> > and, it sort of works. I could open qt Creator, tab
>> around,
>> > even access all the menus and dialogs. But, there was
>> still a lot of
>> > extra chatter, like bits of html leaking into control
>> descriptions
>> > (unfinished NVDA work here?)
>> This is because QT exposes HTML to MSAA, which it really
>> shouldn't do. I guess we could try to implement yet another
>> hack to work around this. Feel free to file a ticket on
>> this, though I can't guarantee we'll get to it in the near
>> future. Note that the correct fix is to have this fixed in
>> QT itself.
>>
>> > Or is this another sine
>> > that nokia don't seem to care too much for
>> accessibility. :(.
>> Unfortunately, I suspect that is probably the case.
>>
>> > If
>> > improvement can be made, what needs to be done, who'd
>> be the best people
>> > to contact in the QT devs to talk accessibility?
>> I don't have a contact in the QT team that deals with
>> accessibility. To be honest, I'm not sure if anyone is
>> really maintaining the QT accessibility code at present,
>> although I did see some minor bugs get fixed a while back.
>> As to what needs to be done, that depends on the problems
>> you are seeing. The HTML thing is easy enough to explain:
>> stop exposing HTML to MSAA. :)
>>
>> > And, if not, could I
>> > convince the dev of the program I'm trying to switch
>> to wx? <grin>
>> That depends how much they care about accessibility. :)
>>
>> Jamie
>>
>> -- James Teh
>> Vice President
>> NV Access Inc, ABN 61773362390
>> Email: [hidden email]
>> Web site: http://www.nvaccess.org/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nvda-dev mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.nvaccess.org/listinfo/nvda-dev
>>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nvda-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.nvaccess.org/listinfo/nvda-dev
>



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Re: [Nvda-dev] improving access to QT applications?

Roopakshi Pathania

Recently, FSF has started its own accessibility initiative. There are a couple of mailing lists that coordinate efforts towards improving accessibility of projects that comply with FSF licenses.
I saw people talking about fixing KDE accessibility bugs there.
So it is perhaps only the website that is not updated.


--- On Mon, 8/23/10, Arthur Pirika <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: Arthur Pirika <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Nvda-dev] improving access to QT applications?
> To: "News and discussion for NVDA (NonVisual Desktop Access), a free and open source screen reader for Microsoft Windows" <[hidden email]>
> Date: Monday, August 23, 2010, 10:52 PM
> the last update was in 2005? Yep,
> that looks really promising. lol
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Roopakshi Pathania" <[hidden email]>
> To: " a free and open source screen reader for Microsoft
> WindowsNews
> anddiscussion for NVDA (NonVisual Desktop Access)"
> <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 3:58 AM
> Subject: Re: [Nvda-dev] improving access to QT
> applications?
>
>
> >
> >
> > Don't know if this would be of any help, but a small
> group of people are
> > trying to make KDE accessible. Since KDE is built on
> QT, they no doubt are
> > contributing towards removing accessibility bugs in
> QT.
> > Here is the site that has a link to contact these
> people.
> > http://accessibility.kde.org/
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > --- On Mon, 8/23/10, James Teh <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> >> From: James Teh <[hidden email]>
> >> Subject: Re: [Nvda-dev] improving access to QT
> applications?
> >> To: "News and discussion for NVDA (NonVisual
> Desktop Access), a free and
> >> open source screen reader for Microsoft Windows"
> >> <[hidden email]>
> >> Date: Monday, August 23, 2010, 4:08 PM
> >> On 23/08/2010 7:39 PM, Arthur Pirika
> >> wrote:
> >> > Hesitantly, I decided to download the latest
> QT gpl
> >> edition sdk from
> >> > nokia, version 4.6.3. I know that you put a
> lot of
> >> work into qt access
> >> > last year
> >> Specifically, I implemented a whole load of hacks
> to work
> >> around bugs/quirks/problems in QT's accessibility
> >> implementation. None of this should really be
> necessary.
> >>
> >> > and, it sort of works. I could open qt
> Creator, tab
> >> around,
> >> > even access all the menus and dialogs. But,
> there was
> >> still a lot of
> >> > extra chatter, like bits of html leaking into
> control
> >> descriptions
> >> > (unfinished NVDA work here?)
> >> This is because QT exposes HTML to MSAA, which it
> really
> >> shouldn't do. I guess we could try to implement
> yet another
> >> hack to work around this. Feel free to file a
> ticket on
> >> this, though I can't guarantee we'll get to it in
> the near
> >> future. Note that the correct fix is to have this
> fixed in
> >> QT itself.
> >>
> >> > Or is this another sine
> >> > that nokia don't seem to care too much for
> >> accessibility. :(.
> >> Unfortunately, I suspect that is probably the
> case.
> >>
> >> > If
> >> > improvement can be made, what needs to be
> done, who'd
> >> be the best people
> >> > to contact in the QT devs to talk
> accessibility?
> >> I don't have a contact in the QT team that deals
> with
> >> accessibility. To be honest, I'm not sure if
> anyone is
> >> really maintaining the QT accessibility code at
> present,
> >> although I did see some minor bugs get fixed a
> while back.
> >> As to what needs to be done, that depends on the
> problems
> >> you are seeing. The HTML thing is easy enough to
> explain:
> >> stop exposing HTML to MSAA. :)
> >>
> >> > And, if not, could I
> >> > convince the dev of the program I'm trying to
> switch
> >> to wx? <grin>
> >> That depends how much they care about
> accessibility. :)
> >>
> >> Jamie
> >>
> >> -- James Teh
> >> Vice President
> >> NV Access Inc, ABN 61773362390
> >> Email: [hidden email]
> >> Web site: http://www.nvaccess.org/
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Nvda-dev mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> http://lists.nvaccess.org/listinfo/nvda-dev
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Nvda-dev mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.nvaccess.org/listinfo/nvda-dev
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nvda-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.nvaccess.org/listinfo/nvda-dev
>


     


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Re: [Nvda-dev] improving access to QT applications?

mk360
In reply to this post by Arthur Pirika
        You can see more information about KDE accessibility searching for
at-spi on dbus. these topics has many information becouse gnome 3 will
use at-spi2 (corba is deprecated in gnome 3) and dbus has the posibility
to obtain information from qt aplications with some help from the KDE
accessibility, and apparently they are working on this (incredible,
becouse the KDE people never give atention to accessibility, or not in
the same manner than gnome).
El 23/08/2010 13:22, Arthur Pirika escribió:

> the last update was in 2005? Yep, that looks really promising. lol
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roopakshi Pathania"
> <[hidden email]>
> To: " a free and open source screen reader for Microsoft WindowsNews
> anddiscussion for NVDA (NonVisual Desktop Access)"
> <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 3:58 AM
> Subject: Re: [Nvda-dev] improving access to QT applications?
>
>
>>
>>
>> Don't know if this would be of any help, but a small group of people
>> are trying to make KDE accessible. Since KDE is built on QT, they no
>> doubt are contributing towards removing accessibility bugs in QT.
>> Here is the site that has a link to contact these people.
>> http://accessibility.kde.org/
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> --- On Mon, 8/23/10, James Teh <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> From: James Teh <[hidden email]>
>>> Subject: Re: [Nvda-dev] improving access to QT applications?
>>> To: "News and discussion for NVDA (NonVisual Desktop Access), a free
>>> and open source screen reader for Microsoft Windows"
>>> <[hidden email]>
>>> Date: Monday, August 23, 2010, 4:08 PM
>>> On 23/08/2010 7:39 PM, Arthur Pirika
>>> wrote:
>>> > Hesitantly, I decided to download the latest QT gpl
>>> edition sdk from
>>> > nokia, version 4.6.3. I know that you put a lot of
>>> work into qt access
>>> > last year
>>> Specifically, I implemented a whole load of hacks to work
>>> around bugs/quirks/problems in QT's accessibility
>>> implementation. None of this should really be necessary.
>>>
>>> > and, it sort of works. I could open qt Creator, tab
>>> around,
>>> > even access all the menus and dialogs. But, there was
>>> still a lot of
>>> > extra chatter, like bits of html leaking into control
>>> descriptions
>>> > (unfinished NVDA work here?)
>>> This is because QT exposes HTML to MSAA, which it really
>>> shouldn't do. I guess we could try to implement yet another
>>> hack to work around this. Feel free to file a ticket on
>>> this, though I can't guarantee we'll get to it in the near
>>> future. Note that the correct fix is to have this fixed in
>>> QT itself.
>>>
>>> > Or is this another sine
>>> > that nokia don't seem to care too much for
>>> accessibility. :(.
>>> Unfortunately, I suspect that is probably the case.
>>>
>>> > If
>>> > improvement can be made, what needs to be done, who'd
>>> be the best people
>>> > to contact in the QT devs to talk accessibility?
>>> I don't have a contact in the QT team that deals with
>>> accessibility. To be honest, I'm not sure if anyone is
>>> really maintaining the QT accessibility code at present,
>>> although I did see some minor bugs get fixed a while back.
>>> As to what needs to be done, that depends on the problems
>>> you are seeing. The HTML thing is easy enough to explain:
>>> stop exposing HTML to MSAA. :)
>>>
>>> > And, if not, could I
>>> > convince the dev of the program I'm trying to switch
>>> to wx? <grin>
>>> That depends how much they care about accessibility. :)
>>>
>>> Jamie
>>>
>>> -- James Teh
>>> Vice President
>>> NV Access Inc, ABN 61773362390
>>> Email: [hidden email]
>>> Web site: http://www.nvaccess.org/
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Nvda-dev mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.nvaccess.org/listinfo/nvda-dev
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nvda-dev mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.nvaccess.org/listinfo/nvda-dev
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nvda-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.nvaccess.org/listinfo/nvda-dev


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Re: [NVDA-dev] [Nvda-dev] improving access to QT applications?

James Teh
In reply to this post by Heiko Folkerts
On 24/08/2010 3:20 AM, Heiko Folkerts wrote:
> since the program we are currently developing at work is running under QT,
> I'd be very interested in pushing the QT Accessibility in QT forwards. Maybe
> the NVDA community could work together to convince the developers to make QT
> more accessible?
I'm happy to file bugs and provide technical feedback to a certain
extent if I know it's worth my time. However, providing this kind of
technical assistance is very time consuming. It's also worth noting that
Nokia are a commercial organisation and really should be paying someone
to deal with accessibility issues. Mick and I both have a lot on our
plates, so we can't afford to waste time on something if we suspect it
isn't going to get anywhere.

> 1. When running in debug mode most things are spoken by NVDA correctly. In
> the release mode there is no accessibility at all e.g. the context menus
> don't get read. Maybe it is our fault, but nobody in our team can explain
> that behavior.
You're probably not building the accessibility plugin in release mode.
Google a bit; there's some info about it somewhere.

> We could file tickets for our accessibility issues and vote for them
By all means, do it.

Jamie

--
James Teh
Vice President
NV Access Inc, ABN 61773362390
Email: [hidden email]
Web site: http://www.nvaccess.org/