NVDA 64-bit build

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NVDA 64-bit build

Daniel Barich
Hello,

Has anyone worked on creating a 64-bit executable of NVDA?  I'm thinking it might work better on 64-bit Windows than the current 32-bit executable.

--
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Re: NVDA 64-bit build

Joseph Lee

Hi Daniel,

Not yet due to the following:

  • We lose portability: Although a pure 64-bit nvda.exe is ideal for 64-bit Windows and for enhanced compatibility when working with 64-bit apps, we then lose a crucial benefit of NVDA: portability. Many people use an installed copy of NVDA, but there are times when one would use portable version, and the best way to allow a single executable scenario is providing the most common denominator approach – 32-bit process running under Windows on Windows 64-bit (WoW64). Plus, current 64-bit X86 processors does provide native 32-bit binary support, so running 32-bit NVDA has no performance penalty under 64-bit Windows releases apart from providing a layer for talking to 64-bit processes.
  • Two sets of Python and issues of dependencies: In order to build a pure 64-bit nvda.exe, one must use 64-bit Python. However, there is an issue to be aware of: dependencies, and at least one are not really optimized for 64-bit Python (SCons, for example).
  • Implied instruction set requirements: When AMD released first 64-bit CPU’s in 2003, they said that SSE2 was part of the core X86-64 instruction set. However there are cases where people would use NVDA on processors that lack SSE2 instructions (old AMD Athlon and Intel Pentium 3 processors, for example). Technically, this is an issue when it comes to 32-bit binaries, but this is something one should be aware of when compiling certain parts of NVDA to use newer instructions (I tried it several times by telling Visual Studio to let NVDA Helper be compiled with SSE instructions; some testers said it provides a bit of improvement in performance, but not quite drastic). I will provide a third-party try build that uses SSE in 2017 to gauge reactions from folks using old processors.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: Daniel Barich [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2016 10:19 AM
To: NVDA screen reader development <[hidden email]>
Subject: [Nvda-devel] NVDA 64-bit build

 

Hello,

Has anyone worked on creating a 64-bit executable of NVDA?  I'm thinking it might work better on 64-bit Windows than the current 32-bit executable.

--

Daniel Barich

Barich Assistive Technology

Gambier, OH 43022


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Re: NVDA 64-bit build

Travis Siegel
In reply to this post by Daniel Barich

I'm not sure why a 64-bit build would work any better than a 32-bit one, the differences are largely internal to the cpus, and have very little to do with actual usability.  I've read all kinds of discussions on 32-bit vs. 64-bit, and I have yet to see any arguments that convince me 64-bit is better for anything other than accessing huge amounts of memory.  If anything, it's convinced me that 32-bit (at least for now) is better, because of the compatibility and size of 32-bit code.  Just because something exists isn't a reason to require it in every facet of life.  64-bit can be nice, but 95 percent of people aren't going to see any difference whatsoever between a 32-bit program and a 64-bit program all other things being equal. (note the all other things being equal disclaimer).



On 12/29/2016 1:19 PM, Daniel Barich wrote:
Hello,

Has anyone worked on creating a 64-bit executable of NVDA?  I'm thinking it might work better on 64-bit Windows than the current 32-bit executable.

--
Daniel Barich
Barich Assistive Technology
Gambier, OH 43022


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Ynt: NVDA 64-bit build

Olcay Aşçı

64-bit we see the success of fiction narrator. so, an incredible difference between 64 bit and 32 bit. especially the main EXE of a software task processor such as nvda particles that can be added to the allocation of current experience moves up at least 4 times. in case of nvda and the kernel of the closure of freezing is initiated by another task is the simplest example. by abandoning the use of py 2 py 3 I think in C or write a kernel and build a base with a zippy 64-bit expansion would add that it makes sense. The belief that the difference between 32 bit and 64 bit is totally untrue is not visible. unusual narrator, a screen reader, although its performance and responsiveness is pretty good.

 

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Kimden: [hidden email]
Gönderilme: 29 Aralık 2016 Perşembe 22:35
Kime: [hidden email]
Konu: Re: [Nvda-devel] NVDA 64-bit build

 

I'm not sure why a 64-bit build would work any better than a 32-bit one, the differences are largely internal to the cpus, and have very little to do with actual usability.  I've read all kinds of discussions on 32-bit vs. 64-bit, and I have yet to see any arguments that convince me 64-bit is better for anything other than accessing huge amounts of memory.  If anything, it's convinced me that 32-bit (at least for now) is better, because of the compatibility and size of 32-bit code.  Just because something exists isn't a reason to require it in every facet of life.  64-bit can be nice, but 95 percent of people aren't going to see any difference whatsoever between a 32-bit program and a 64-bit program all other things being equal. (note the all other things being equal disclaimer).

 

 

On 12/29/2016 1:19 PM, Daniel Barich wrote:

Hello,

Has anyone worked on creating a 64-bit executable of NVDA?  I'm thinking it might work better on 64-bit Windows than the current 32-bit executable.

--

Daniel Barich

Barich Assistive Technology

Gambier, OH 43022




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Re: Ynt: NVDA 64-bit build

Joseph Lee

Hi,

The flip side of this coin (if I understand you) is loss of market. Progress is good, but there comes a time when we need to serve as bridges. Thus, like Travis said, it’s best to leave NVDA in 32-bit land for the time being (if you do run NVDA in 64-bit mode, a helper executable will be run to let NVDA, a 32-bit app, talk to 64-bit processes).

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2016 11:58 AM
To: NVDA screen reader development <[hidden email]>
Subject: [Nvda-devel] Ynt: NVDA 64-bit build

 

64-bit we see the success of fiction narrator. so, an incredible difference between 64 bit and 32 bit. especially the main EXE of a software task processor such as nvda particles that can be added to the allocation of current experience moves up at least 4 times. in case of nvda and the kernel of the closure of freezing is initiated by another task is the simplest example. by abandoning the use of py 2 py 3 I think in C or write a kernel and build a base with a zippy 64-bit expansion would add that it makes sense. The belief that the difference between 32 bit and 64 bit is totally untrue is not visible. unusual narrator, a screen reader, although its performance and responsiveness is pretty good.

 

Windows 10 için Posta ile gönderildi

 

Kimden: [hidden email]
Gönderilme: 29 Aralık 2016 Perşembe 22:35
Kime: [hidden email]
Konu: Re: [Nvda-devel] NVDA 64-bit build

 

I'm not sure why a 64-bit build would work any better than a 32-bit one, the differences are largely internal to the cpus, and have very little to do with actual usability.  I've read all kinds of discussions on 32-bit vs. 64-bit, and I have yet to see any arguments that convince me 64-bit is better for anything other than accessing huge amounts of memory.  If anything, it's convinced me that 32-bit (at least for now) is better, because of the compatibility and size of 32-bit code.  Just because something exists isn't a reason to require it in every facet of life.  64-bit can be nice, but 95 percent of people aren't going to see any difference whatsoever between a 32-bit program and a 64-bit program all other things being equal. (note the all other things being equal disclaimer).

 

 

On 12/29/2016 1:19 PM, Daniel Barich wrote:

Hello,

Has anyone worked on creating a 64-bit executable of NVDA?  I'm thinking it might work better on 64-bit Windows than the current 32-bit executable.

--

Daniel Barich

Barich Assistive Technology

Gambier, OH 43022



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Re: Ynt: NVDA 64-bit build

derek riemer

If you're suggesting writing a kernel module for NVDA, I would strongly say no. This is extremely difficult to do, any bugs will most likely make the computer crash and bluescreen, and unless you really know what you are doing, you just opened up a huge security hole. Leave kernel modules to hardware experts for very defined tasks. Also, most of accessibility is communicating over COM, which isn't done best in kernel modules.


On 12/29/2016 1:07 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,

The flip side of this coin (if I understand you) is loss of market. Progress is good, but there comes a time when we need to serve as bridges. Thus, like Travis said, it’s best to leave NVDA in 32-bit land for the time being (if you do run NVDA in 64-bit mode, a helper executable will be run to let NVDA, a 32-bit app, talk to 64-bit processes).

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]]
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2016 11:58 AM
To: NVDA screen reader development [hidden email]
Subject: [Nvda-devel] Ynt: NVDA 64-bit build

 

64-bit we see the success of fiction narrator. so, an incredible difference between 64 bit and 32 bit. especially the main EXE of a software task processor such as nvda particles that can be added to the allocation of current experience moves up at least 4 times. in case of nvda and the kernel of the closure of freezing is initiated by another task is the simplest example. by abandoning the use of py 2 py 3 I think in C or write a kernel and build a base with a zippy 64-bit expansion would add that it makes sense. The belief that the difference between 32 bit and 64 bit is totally untrue is not visible. unusual narrator, a screen reader, although its performance and responsiveness is pretty good.

 

Windows 10 için Posta ile gönderildi

 

Kimden: [hidden email]
Gönderilme: 29 Aralık 2016 Perşembe 22:35
Kime: [hidden email]
Konu: Re: [Nvda-devel] NVDA 64-bit build

 

I'm not sure why a 64-bit build would work any better than a 32-bit one, the differences are largely internal to the cpus, and have very little to do with actual usability.  I've read all kinds of discussions on 32-bit vs. 64-bit, and I have yet to see any arguments that convince me 64-bit is better for anything other than accessing huge amounts of memory.  If anything, it's convinced me that 32-bit (at least for now) is better, because of the compatibility and size of 32-bit code.  Just because something exists isn't a reason to require it in every facet of life.  64-bit can be nice, but 95 percent of people aren't going to see any difference whatsoever between a 32-bit program and a 64-bit program all other things being equal. (note the all other things being equal disclaimer).

 

 

On 12/29/2016 1:19 PM, Daniel Barich wrote:

Hello,

Has anyone worked on creating a 64-bit executable of NVDA?  I'm thinking it might work better on 64-bit Windows than the current 32-bit executable.

--

Daniel Barich

Barich Assistive Technology

Gambier, OH 43022



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  • Department of computer science, third year undergraduate student.
  • Proud user of the NVDA screen reader.
  • Open source enthusiast.
  • Member of Bridge Cu
  • Avid skiier.

Websites:
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Awesome little hand built weather app!

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Re: Ynt: NVDA 64-bit build

Halim Sahin
In reply to this post by Joseph Lee
Hi,
Well: all modern cpus are 64bit capable.
This might be a thing which kmicrosoft can use to stop 32bit build of windows.
Then the next step would be to allow only 64bit applications runing in pure 64bit environments.
BTW.: other screeneaders have 64bit builds as well.

The other resaons in my opinion are as follows:
1. Java accessbridge bundled with 64bit Servers are afaik not  accessible
2. what about 64bit sapivoices?

Regards
Halim


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Re: Ynt: NVDA 64-bit build

Mgr. Janusz Chmiel-3
Dear,
I think, that The best is to wait. If Microsoft will disable 32 bit
support inside 64 bit Windows. I do not know about many 64 bit SAPI
synthesizers. By The way. It would not be very easy to modify C++ Espeak
dll to be compiled to 64 bit mode?
I AM suggesting The other choice.
All of us, who would want to release 64 bit NVDA, try to do it
yourselves. Create separate Github branch for this purpose, modify C++
sources of NVDA libraries to work and tryto compare The speed.
We live in freedom and everyone can modify source code of NVDA according
to his opinions and needs.


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Re: NVDA 64-bit build

Brian Gaff Lineone downstairs
In reply to this post by Daniel Barich
How would that make much difference theough?
 Brian

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Brian Gaff's other account.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel Barich" <[hidden email]>
To: "NVDA screen reader development" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2016 6:19 PM
Subject: [Nvda-devel] NVDA 64-bit build


> Hello,
>
> Has anyone worked on creating a 64-bit executable of NVDA?  I'm thinking
> it
> might work better on 64-bit Windows than the current 32-bit executable.
>
> --
> Daniel Barich
> Barich Assistive Technology
> Gambier, OH 43022
>


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Re: NVDA 64-bit build

Brian's Mail list account BY
In reply to this post by Joseph Lee
The thing is somebody needs to find out how many of these machines still
exist. I have 2 of them and already this seems to mean that Dropbox and
Firefox have ended support for them.
 Firefox 48 is the last one that runs with no sse2, and Dropbox 13.x. I have
frozen both update processes to stop the inevitable  try and fail. In the
case of Dropbox this had to be done manually with permissions and altering
file names of update processes, but firefox have in fact made it stop
themselves.
I also seem to find neither will allow a new flash to install either. I
think Adobe updates to 11 will not install either but its hard to get some
actual human understandable proof.
 I'm sure there will be others.
 These machines are now mostly too slow to allow any serious use other than
as a server on my network.

I will say this also. The effectiveness of Nvda as a portable solution has
become less after Windows 7. Many programs have all or part of themselves
which are now  inaccessible from portable nvda. Ccleaner and even some parts
of Windows 10 itself.
 Jamie seems to be saying this is due to the greater use of more modern APIs
that only work with software which has admin rights, presumably for security
reasons, though I have to say myself that for most of the home users I know
this is a considerable pain as we all never had these issues in xp and 7, as
long as you did not do daft stuff.

 It would be nice if Microsoft allowed  people to turn off this feature
under pain of death ie at their own risk.


Are there any 64 bit screenreaders out there? I'm a bit out of touch myself
I have to say.
 Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Lee" <[hidden email]>
To: "'NVDA screen reader development'" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2016 6:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Nvda-devel] NVDA 64-bit build


Hi Daniel,

Not yet due to the following:

* We lose portability: Although a pure 64-bit nvda.exe is ideal for 64-bit
Windows and for enhanced compatibility when working with 64-bit apps, we
then lose a crucial benefit of NVDA: portability. Many people use an
installed copy of NVDA, but there are times when one would use portable
version, and the best way to allow a single executable scenario is providing
the most common denominator approach – 32-bit process running under Windows
on Windows 64-bit (WoW64). Plus, current 64-bit X86 processors does provide
native 32-bit binary support, so running 32-bit NVDA has no performance
penalty under 64-bit Windows releases apart from providing a layer for
talking to 64-bit processes.
* Two sets of Python and issues of dependencies: In order to build a pure
64-bit nvda.exe, one must use 64-bit Python. However, there is an issue to
be aware of: dependencies, and at least one are not really optimized for
64-bit Python (SCons, for example).
* Implied instruction set requirements: When AMD released first 64-bit CPU’s
in 2003, they said that SSE2 was part of the core X86-64 instruction set.
However there are cases where people would use NVDA on processors that lack
SSE2 instructions (old AMD Athlon and Intel Pentium 3 processors, for
example). Technically, this is an issue when it comes to 32-bit binaries,
but this is something one should be aware of when compiling certain parts of
NVDA to use newer instructions (I tried it several times by telling Visual
Studio to let NVDA Helper be compiled with SSE instructions; some testers
said it provides a bit of improvement in performance, but not quite
drastic). I will provide a third-party try build that uses SSE in 2017 to
gauge reactions from folks using old processors.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Joseph



From: Daniel Barich [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2016 10:19 AM
To: NVDA screen reader development <[hidden email]>
Subject: [Nvda-devel] NVDA 64-bit build



Hello,

Has anyone worked on creating a 64-bit executable of NVDA?  I'm thinking it
might work better on 64-bit Windows than the current 32-bit executable.

--

Daniel Barich

Barich Assistive Technology

Gambier, OH 43022




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Re: NVDA 64-bit build

Brian's Mail list account BY
In reply to this post by Travis Siegel
Yes I've tried both 64 bit versions of firefox and IE and could only find
down sides. More crashes sudden jults in speed while in use and generally
less polished performance.
 As for Edge, its not been around long enough in my view to become pollished
in any incarnation!
Chrome I cannot comment, as don't like it much.

I notice that one is forced to use 64bit cclean if its a 64 bit machine but
using the portable 32 bit seems to be just as good to me.
 Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Travis Siegel" <[hidden email]>
To: "NVDA screen reader development" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2016 7:34 PM
Subject: Re: [Nvda-devel] NVDA 64-bit build


> I'm not sure why a 64-bit build would work any better than a 32-bit one,
> the differences are largely internal to the cpus, and have very little
> to do with actual usability.  I've read all kinds of discussions on
> 32-bit vs. 64-bit, and I have yet to see any arguments that convince me
> 64-bit is better for anything other than accessing huge amounts of
> memory.  If anything, it's convinced me that 32-bit (at least for now)
> is better, because of the compatibility and size of 32-bit code.  Just
> because something exists isn't a reason to require it in every facet of
> life. 64-bit can be nice, but 95 percent of people aren't going to see
> any difference whatsoever between a 32-bit program and a 64-bit program
> all other things being equal. (note the all other things being equal
> disclaimer).
>
>
>
> On 12/29/2016 1:19 PM, Daniel Barich wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> Has anyone worked on creating a 64-bit executable of NVDA?  I'm
>> thinking it might work better on 64-bit Windows than the current
>> 32-bit executable.
>>
>> --
>> Daniel Barich
>> Barich Assistive Technology
>> Gambier, OH 43022
>>
>>
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>>
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>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/nvda-devel
>
>
>
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Re: Ynt: NVDA 64-bit build

Brian's Mail list account BY
In reply to this post by Olcay Aşçı
Really?  Narrator is part of Windows so  you would expect it to be better in
the 64 bit but if you are  rewriting software for 64 bit its the old If I
were going there, I'd not start from here  logic.
 Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: <[hidden email]>
To: "NVDA screen reader development" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2016 7:57 PM
Subject: [Nvda-devel] Ynt: NVDA 64-bit build


64-bit we see the success of fiction narrator. so, an incredible difference
between 64 bit and 32 bit. especially the main EXE of a software task
processor such as nvda particles that can be added to the allocation of
current experience moves up at least 4 times. in case of nvda and the kernel
of the closure of freezing is initiated by another task is the simplest
example. by abandoning the use of py 2 py 3 I think in C or write a kernel
and build a base with a zippy 64-bit expansion would add that it makes
sense. The belief that the difference between 32 bit and 64 bit is totally
untrue is not visible. unusual narrator, a screen reader, although its
performance and responsiveness is pretty good.

Windows 10 için Posta ile gönderildi

Kimden: Travis Siegel
Gönderilme: 29 Aralık 2016 Perşembe 22:35
Kime: NVDA screen reader development
Konu: Re: [Nvda-devel] NVDA 64-bit build

I'm not sure why a 64-bit build would work any better than a 32-bit one, the
differences are largely internal to the cpus, and have very little to do
with actual usability. I've read all kinds of discussions on 32-bit vs.
64-bit, and I have yet to see any arguments that convince me 64-bit is
better for anything other than accessing huge amounts of memory. If
anything, it's convinced me that 32-bit (at least for now) is better,
because of the compatibility and size of 32-bit code. Just because something
exists isn't a reason to require it in every facet of life. 64-bit can be
nice, but 95 percent of people aren't going to see any difference whatsoever
between a 32-bit program and a 64-bit program all other things being equal.
(note the all other things being equal disclaimer).


On 12/29/2016 1:19 PM, Daniel Barich wrote:
Hello,
Has anyone worked on creating a 64-bit executable of NVDA? I'm thinking it
might work better on 64-bit Windows than the current 32-bit executable.

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Re: Ynt: NVDA 64-bit build

Brian's Mail list account BY
In reply to this post by Halim Sahin
They would not do that as even they would realise it would lose them
markets. You only need to look at the way xp has hung on and I suspect so
will 7. Besides, sobright spark will simply write a shell to enable them to
run again.


Obviously if the next incarnation of computers comesalong it might not even
be possible to run windows as it is now, and everything else will be running
under software emulation in any case.
 Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Halim Sahin" <[hidden email]>
To: "NVDA screen reader development" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2016 10:07 AM
Subject: Re: [Nvda-devel] Ynt: NVDA 64-bit build


> Hi,
> Well: all modern cpus are 64bit capable.
> This might be a thing which kmicrosoft can use to stop 32bit build of
> windows.
> Then the next step would be to allow only 64bit applications runing in
> pure 64bit environments.
> BTW.: other screeneaders have 64bit builds as well.
>
> The other resaons in my opinion are as follows:
> 1. Java accessbridge bundled with 64bit Servers are afaik not  accessible
> 2. what about 64bit sapivoices?
>
> Regards
> Halim
>
>
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Ynt: Ynt: NVDA 64-bit build

Olcay Aşçı

I think there is more here than is being a part of Windows. nvda's 64-bit performance to the performance of the Python interpreter may not be connected. however, this one step will give a performance boost to go beyond boldurere processor core critical path tasks. defining a function H, especially the new plug-ins, this method continues to be run with nvda that prevents the interruption of the process. even though the performance is low on 64-bit Python to be able to divide tasks and nvda.exe file clone and divide the different tasks incredible performance. especially on a moving screen and more memory demanding tasks, so we can prevent compression of nnv uncle. here we can make only by giving priority other functions, the important functions of sleep. it takes quite a time already for me to make it.

 

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Kimden: [hidden email]
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Kime: [hidden email]
Konu: Re: [Nvda-devel] Ynt: NVDA 64-bit build

 

They would not do that as even they would realise it would lose them

markets. You only need to look at the way xp has hung on and I suspect so

will 7. Besides, sobright spark will simply write a shell to enable them to

run again.

 

 

Obviously if the next incarnation of computers comesalong it might not even

be possible to run windows as it is now, and everything else will be running

under software emulation in any case.

Brian

 

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----- Original Message -----

From: "Halim Sahin" <[hidden email]>

To: "NVDA screen reader development" <[hidden email]>

Sent: Friday, December 30, 2016 10:07 AM

Subject: Re: [Nvda-devel] Ynt: NVDA 64-bit build

 

 

> Hi,

> Well: all modern cpus are 64bit capable.

> This might be a thing which kmicrosoft can use to stop 32bit build of

> windows.

> Then the next step would be to allow only 64bit applications runing in

> pure 64bit environments.

> BTW.: other screeneaders have 64bit builds as well.

> 

> The other resaons in my opinion are as follows:

> 1. Java accessbridge bundled with 64bit Servers are afaik not  accessible

> 2. what about 64bit sapivoices?

> 

> Regards

> Halim

> 

> 

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Re: Ynt: NVDA 64-bit build

Joseph Lee
In reply to this post by Mgr. Janusz Chmiel-3
Hi,
C++ isn't the only language NVDA speaks: Python matters as well. If people
want to build a pure 64-bit nvda.exe, they need to use 64-bit Python, 64-bit
Python and C++ dependencies, and know about limitations of 64-bit API calls.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: Mgr. Janusz Chmiel [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2016 2:47 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Nvda-devel] Ynt: NVDA 64-bit build

Dear,
I think, that The best is to wait. If Microsoft will disable 32 bit support
inside 64 bit Windows. I do not know about many 64 bit SAPI synthesizers. By
The way. It would not be very easy to modify C++ Espeak dll to be compiled
to 64 bit mode?
I AM suggesting The other choice.
All of us, who would want to release 64 bit NVDA, try to do it yourselves.
Create separate Github branch for this purpose, modify C++ sources of NVDA
libraries to work and tryto compare The speed.
We live in freedom and everyone can modify source code of NVDA according to
his opinions and needs.


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Re: NVDA 64-bit build

Doug Lee
In reply to this post by Brian's Mail list account BY
For what it may be worth, my most prominent experience with attempting performance improvements via a switch to
64-bit apps was with Cygwin. I did not notice any performance change. I did notice problems with apps
launching other apps reduced, but that problem is well documented and very Cygwin-specific; it would
absolutely not apply to NVDA at all. The switch did appear to introduce problems with audio device handling
and/or access to MP3 DLL handlers, but that could also be pilot error.

My point is that Cygwin, with its literally thousands of apps, did not seem to get faster when I used 64-bit
versions.

This is a 2.4 gHz I7 laptop with 16 gig of RAM running Windows 8.1.

On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 11:09:45AM -0000, Brian's Mail list account BY wrote:
Yes I've tried both 64 bit versions of firefox and IE and could only find
down sides. More crashes sudden jults in speed while in use and generally
less polished performance.
 As for Edge, its not been around long enough in my view to become pollished
in any incarnation!
Chrome I cannot comment, as don't like it much.

I notice that one is forced to use 64bit cclean if its a 64 bit machine but
using the portable 32 bit seems to be just as good to me.
 Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Travis Siegel" <[hidden email]>
To: "NVDA screen reader development" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2016 7:34 PM
Subject: Re: [Nvda-devel] NVDA 64-bit build


> I'm not sure why a 64-bit build would work any better than a 32-bit one,
> the differences are largely internal to the cpus, and have very little
> to do with actual usability.  I've read all kinds of discussions on
> 32-bit vs. 64-bit, and I have yet to see any arguments that convince me
> 64-bit is better for anything other than accessing huge amounts of
> memory.  If anything, it's convinced me that 32-bit (at least for now)
> is better, because of the compatibility and size of 32-bit code.  Just
> because something exists isn't a reason to require it in every facet of
> life. 64-bit can be nice, but 95 percent of people aren't going to see
> any difference whatsoever between a 32-bit program and a 64-bit program
> all other things being equal. (note the all other things being equal
> disclaimer).
>
>
>
> On 12/29/2016 1:19 PM, Daniel Barich wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> Has anyone worked on creating a 64-bit executable of NVDA?  I'm
>> thinking it might work better on 64-bit Windows than the current
>> 32-bit executable.
>>
>> --
>> Daniel Barich
>> Barich Assistive Technology
>> Gambier, OH 43022
>>
>>
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>> engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>
>
>
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Re: Ynt: Ynt: NVDA 64-bit build

Joseph Lee
In reply to this post by Olcay Aşçı

Hi,

I hope the below post doesn’t come harsh to your ears:

After doing months of research and asking Jamie and other NVDA developers, my conclusion is this: NVDA, and majority of other screen reading algorithms, are serial threading streams. What I mean is this:

A user of a screen reader (or for that matter, developers of screen readers) expects a screen reader to gather, interpret, and present data one after another. If this is done serially (one after the other), it provides smoother screen reading experience. Parallelization provides some benefits in that screen reading streams can come from multiple sources at once, but it runs into several problems:

  1. Screen reading stream reordering and conflicts: suppose you are filling out a spreadsheet in Microsoft Excel and a help balloon pops up, and it happens that both events happen at the same exact moment. What should NVDA do: read toasts first, or tell you that you have just modified an Excel cell? I’d personally give priority to the foreground object first, but what if this help balloon that just popped up informs you that something more important with your computer (such as disk failures) is happening? Resolving this introduces subjectivity, something a screen reader isn’t designed to handle well (screen reader developers can provide a suitable priority system, but humans have subjective minds).
  2. Unexpected screen reading behaviors: if a function that manipulates a global variable is run concurrently, the chance of incorrect results popping up increases, particularly if a global variable is used by screen reading algorithms to gather crucial information. This could lead to excessive verbosity to failure to recognize apps and controls.
  3. Python itself isn’t technically multi-threaded: there are Python modules that can emulate parallelization, but this isn’t there yet in core Python (CPython uses global interpreter lock (GIL) to control thread execution).
  4. Power usage: the more processors you use, more power is spent. Unfortunately, NVDA did not have a suitable power usage policy to begin with – introducing a suitable power saving scheme requires spending months researching and writing code that’ll accomplish it.

Unfortunately, current screen readers cannot take advantage of more than say, three processing cores or a small number of CPU cores. In other words, there’s more to the story than words when it comes to parallelizing screen reading algorithms. As many computer programmers say, “don’t optimize until you get it right and test your program for inefficiencies.” In case of parallelization, my research finding is that some parts could be parallelized, but not all (don’t expect NVDA code to run on all processing elements of a quad-core processor for a long while).

P.S. I personally apply optimization strategy mentioned above in my add-ons – I write features first (obviously designing them before that), leave them alone for few months to years, then come back to it (analyze and optimize).

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2016 5:57 AM
To: NVDA screen reader development <[hidden email]>
Subject: [Nvda-devel] Ynt: Ynt: NVDA 64-bit build

 

I think there is more here than is being a part of Windows. nvda's 64-bit performance to the performance of the Python interpreter may not be connected. however, this one step will give a performance boost to go beyond boldurere processor core critical path tasks. defining a function H, especially the new plug-ins, this method continues to be run with nvda that prevents the interruption of the process. even though the performance is low on 64-bit Python to be able to divide tasks and nvda.exe file clone and divide the different tasks incredible performance. especially on a moving screen and more memory demanding tasks, so we can prevent compression of nnv uncle. here we can make only by giving priority other functions, the important functions of sleep. it takes quite a time already for me to make it.

 

Windows 10 için Posta ile gönderildi

 

Kimden: [hidden email]
Gönderilme: 30 Aralık 2016 Cuma 14:17
Kime: [hidden email]
Konu: Re: [Nvda-devel] Ynt: NVDA 64-bit build

 

They would not do that as even they would realise it would lose them

markets. You only need to look at the way xp has hung on and I suspect so

will 7. Besides, sobright spark will simply write a shell to enable them to

run again.

 

 

Obviously if the next incarnation of computers comesalong it might not even

be possible to run windows as it is now, and everything else will be running

under software emulation in any case.

Brian

 

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Sent via blueyonder.

Please address personal email to:-

[hidden email], putting 'Brian Gaff'

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----- Original Message -----

From: "Halim Sahin" <[hidden email]>

To: "NVDA screen reader development" <[hidden email]>

Sent: Friday, December 30, 2016 10:07 AM

Subject: Re: [Nvda-devel] Ynt: NVDA 64-bit build

 

 

> Hi,

> Well: all modern cpus are 64bit capable.

> This might be a thing which kmicrosoft can use to stop 32bit build of

> windows.

> Then the next step would be to allow only 64bit applications runing in

> pure 64bit environments.

> BTW.: other screeneaders have 64bit builds as well.

> 

> The other resaons in my opinion are as follows:

> 1. Java accessbridge bundled with 64bit Servers are afaik not  accessible

> 2. what about 64bit sapivoices?

> 

> Regards

> Halim

> 

> 

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most

> engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot

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> [hidden email]

> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/nvda-devel

 

 

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Re: Ynt: NVDA 64-bit build

Tamas Geczy
In reply to this post by Joseph Lee


There's a huge benefit to 64 bit. Look at things like blackboard collaborator, it uses Java but NVDA cannot access because Java access bridge support socks. In 64 bit, blackboard collaborate will not even read anything under NVDA but only Joss. I have multiple students who are now using this other screen reader as a result. So I would argue against 64-bit being a nuisance, we need better compatibility with 3rd party accessibility APIs. Maybe even qt five apps could work properly with NVDA then. On top of that, I don't think many people would use NVDA with a processor that doesn't support 64 bit. Perhaps there could be a long-term support branch for older supported versions which could still run under 32 bit.

On Dec 29, 2016, at 12:07 PM, Joseph Lee <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi,

The flip side of this coin (if I understand you) is loss of market. Progress is good, but there comes a time when we need to serve as bridges. Thus, like Travis said, it’s best to leave NVDA in 32-bit land for the time being (if you do run NVDA in 64-bit mode, a helper executable will be run to let NVDA, a 32-bit app, talk to 64-bit processes).

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]]
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2016 11:58 AM
To: NVDA screen reader development <[hidden email]>
Subject: [Nvda-devel] Ynt: NVDA 64-bit build

 

64-bit we see the success of fiction narrator. so, an incredible difference between 64 bit and 32 bit. especially the main EXE of a software task processor such as nvda particles that can be added to the allocation of current experience moves up at least 4 times. in case of nvda and the kernel of the closure of freezing is initiated by another task is the simplest example. by abandoning the use of py 2 py 3 I think in C or write a kernel and build a base with a zippy 64-bit expansion would add that it makes sense. The belief that the difference between 32 bit and 64 bit is totally untrue is not visible. unusual narrator, a screen reader, although its performance and responsiveness is pretty good.

 

Windows 10 için Posta ile gönderildi

 

Kimden: [hidden email]
Gönderilme: 29 Aralık 2016 Perşembe 22:35
Kime: [hidden email]
Konu: Re: [Nvda-devel] NVDA 64-bit build

 

I'm not sure why a 64-bit build would work any better than a 32-bit one, the differences are largely internal to the cpus, and have very little to do with actual usability.  I've read all kinds of discussions on 32-bit vs. 64-bit, and I have yet to see any arguments that convince me 64-bit is better for anything other than accessing huge amounts of memory.  If anything, it's convinced me that 32-bit (at least for now) is better, because of the compatibility and size of 32-bit code.  Just because something exists isn't a reason to require it in every facet of life.  64-bit can be nice, but 95 percent of people aren't going to see any difference whatsoever between a 32-bit program and a 64-bit program all other things being equal. (note the all other things being equal disclaimer).

 

 

On 12/29/2016 1:19 PM, Daniel Barich wrote:

Hello,

Has anyone worked on creating a 64-bit executable of NVDA?  I'm thinking it might work better on 64-bit Windows than the current 32-bit executable.

--

Daniel Barich

Barich Assistive Technology

Gambier, OH 43022



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Re: Ynt: NVDA 64-bit build

Joseph Lee

Hi,

Actually, there are many who are using NVDA with 32-bit-only processors (I for one use a 32-bit VM for testing purposes). As I mentioned before, we lose portability if we move to pure 64-bit executable.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: Tamas geczy [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2016 8:34 AM
To: NVDA screen reader development <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Nvda-devel] Ynt: NVDA 64-bit build

 



There's a huge benefit to 64 bit. Look at things like blackboard collaborator, it uses Java but NVDA cannot access because Java access bridge support socks. In 64 bit, blackboard collaborate will not even read anything under NVDA but only Joss. I have multiple students who are now using this other screen reader as a result. So I would argue against 64-bit being a nuisance, we need better compatibility with 3rd party accessibility APIs. Maybe even qt five apps could work properly with NVDA then. On top of that, I don't think many people would use NVDA with a processor that doesn't support 64 bit. Perhaps there could be a long-term support branch for older supported versions which could still run under 32 bit.


On Dec 29, 2016, at 12:07 PM, Joseph Lee <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi,

The flip side of this coin (if I understand you) is loss of market. Progress is good, but there comes a time when we need to serve as bridges. Thus, like Travis said, it’s best to leave NVDA in 32-bit land for the time being (if you do run NVDA in 64-bit mode, a helper executable will be run to let NVDA, a 32-bit app, talk to 64-bit processes).

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]]
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2016 11:58 AM
To: NVDA screen reader development <[hidden email]>
Subject: [Nvda-devel] Ynt: NVDA 64-bit build

 

64-bit we see the success of fiction narrator. so, an incredible difference between 64 bit and 32 bit. especially the main EXE of a software task processor such as nvda particles that can be added to the allocation of current experience moves up at least 4 times. in case of nvda and the kernel of the closure of freezing is initiated by another task is the simplest example. by abandoning the use of py 2 py 3 I think in C or write a kernel and build a base with a zippy 64-bit expansion would add that it makes sense. The belief that the difference between 32 bit and 64 bit is totally untrue is not visible. unusual narrator, a screen reader, although its performance and responsiveness is pretty good.

 

Windows 10 için Posta ile gönderildi

 

Kimden: [hidden email]
Gönderilme: 29 Aralık 2016 Perşembe 22:35
Kime: [hidden email]
Konu: Re: [Nvda-devel] NVDA 64-bit build

 

I'm not sure why a 64-bit build would work any better than a 32-bit one, the differences are largely internal to the cpus, and have very little to do with actual usability.  I've read all kinds of discussions on 32-bit vs. 64-bit, and I have yet to see any arguments that convince me 64-bit is better for anything other than accessing huge amounts of memory.  If anything, it's convinced me that 32-bit (at least for now) is better, because of the compatibility and size of 32-bit code.  Just because something exists isn't a reason to require it in every facet of life.  64-bit can be nice, but 95 percent of people aren't going to see any difference whatsoever between a 32-bit program and a 64-bit program all other things being equal. (note the all other things being equal disclaimer).

 

 

On 12/29/2016 1:19 PM, Daniel Barich wrote:

Hello,

Has anyone worked on creating a 64-bit executable of NVDA?  I'm thinking it might work better on 64-bit Windows than the current 32-bit executable.

--

Daniel Barich

Barich Assistive Technology

Gambier, OH 43022




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Re: Ynt: NVDA 64-bit build

Olcay Aşçı
In reply to this post by Tamas Geczy

64-bit processors that do not support there are many people that use? It means that you are not using the current version they already have. I also now use 64-bit is the most basic requirement to catch up with modern technology. I just really you do not need to mix that much about that.

 

From: Tamas geczy [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2016 7:34 PM
To: NVDA screen reader development <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Nvda-devel] Ynt: NVDA 64-bit build

 



There's a huge benefit to 64 bit. Look at things like blackboard collaborator, it uses Java but NVDA cannot access because Java access bridge support socks. In 64 bit, blackboard collaborate will not even read anything under NVDA but only Joss. I have multiple students who are now using this other screen reader as a result. So I would argue against 64-bit being a nuisance, we need better compatibility with 3rd party accessibility APIs. Maybe even qt five apps could work properly with NVDA then. On top of that, I don't think many people would use NVDA with a processor that doesn't support 64 bit. Perhaps there could be a long-term support branch for older supported versions which could still run under 32 bit.


On Dec 29, 2016, at 12:07 PM, Joseph Lee <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi,

The flip side of this coin (if I understand you) is loss of market. Progress is good, but there comes a time when we need to serve as bridges. Thus, like Travis said, it’s best to leave NVDA in 32-bit land for the time being (if you do run NVDA in 64-bit mode, a helper executable will be run to let NVDA, a 32-bit app, talk to 64-bit processes).

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]]
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2016 11:58 AM
To: NVDA screen reader development <[hidden email]>
Subject: [Nvda-devel] Ynt: NVDA 64-bit build

 

64-bit we see the success of fiction narrator. so, an incredible difference between 64 bit and 32 bit. especially the main EXE of a software task processor such as nvda particles that can be added to the allocation of current experience moves up at least 4 times. in case of nvda and the kernel of the closure of freezing is initiated by another task is the simplest example. by abandoning the use of py 2 py 3 I think in C or write a kernel and build a base with a zippy 64-bit expansion would add that it makes sense. The belief that the difference between 32 bit and 64 bit is totally untrue is not visible. unusual narrator, a screen reader, although its performance and responsiveness is pretty good.

 

Windows 10 için Posta ile gönderildi

 

Kimden: [hidden email]
Gönderilme: 29 Aralık 2016 Perşembe 22:35
Kime: [hidden email]
Konu: Re: [Nvda-devel] NVDA 64-bit build

 

I'm not sure why a 64-bit build would work any better than a 32-bit one, the differences are largely internal to the cpus, and have very little to do with actual usability.  I've read all kinds of discussions on 32-bit vs. 64-bit, and I have yet to see any arguments that convince me 64-bit is better for anything other than accessing huge amounts of memory.  If anything, it's convinced me that 32-bit (at least for now) is better, because of the compatibility and size of 32-bit code.  Just because something exists isn't a reason to require it in every facet of life.  64-bit can be nice, but 95 percent of people aren't going to see any difference whatsoever between a 32-bit program and a 64-bit program all other things being equal. (note the all other things being equal disclaimer).

 

 

On 12/29/2016 1:19 PM, Daniel Barich wrote:

Hello,

Has anyone worked on creating a 64-bit executable of NVDA?  I'm thinking it might work better on 64-bit Windows than the current 32-bit executable.

--

Daniel Barich

Barich Assistive Technology

Gambier, OH 43022




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